FOrum Blend Phase 2 - Wrapper Discussion

Alex Svenson

Okay, votes are wrapping up in a bit. It is safe to say that the forum blend will be medium, or medium to full but we will need to tally the votes. Below is a complete list of wrappers to choose from with some tasting notes for each. Note, that I am listing the primings available, where available. Seco, Viso and Ligero. For you green horns as a reminder, seco is the bottom of the plant and the middle leaves are viso and the upper leaves are ligero. As you work your way from the bottom leaves to the top, you pick up more flavor, more nicotine and more strength but you lose composition in some cases. Give you guys are looking for something medium or medium full (waiting on result from the vote), I would suggest staying away from anything seco. I would also recommend sating away from Connecticut or Indonesia for now. That is my only 2 cents I can offer based on where we are in the process. This is not a voting thread, simply a discussion thread. Voting thread will go live Tuesday. the wrapper will be a very important component of the blend as it will be responsible for setting pace. It contributes more than 50% of the flavor influence. If this were cooking, right now we would be deciding if we want to cook chicken, fish or steak. That is how important it is. Also note that as you get into ligero wrappers for habano seed, they are fermented to a full oscuro resembling what most cigar smokers identify as maduro.

Habano Brazil (Seco, Viso, Ligero) - rare wrapper only grown by one company and only sold to about 2 or 3 factories world wide. Used on cigars like san lotano habano and many of the Jesus Fuego blends. This cigar is a classic habano but very elegant. Not in your face. Notes of cedar yet balanced with spicy and some leathery notes.

Arapiraca - Found on CAO Black VR and Cigar.com Brazilian Label. Sweet maduro grown in brazil. Sugary qualities and an oily wrapper. Sweet with notes of wood and and a light peat and maple.

Mata Fina - Found on cigars like CAO Brazilia for example. Brazilian wrapper with a nice light sweetness but a core of chewy, leathery flavors and light spiciness.

Indonesia - Thin and somewhat blotchy wrapper. It is slightly sweet yet bitter also with a sharp finish. Found mainly on cheap cigars. IE Flor de Oliva.

Connecticut Ecuador - Found on Man O War Virtue and Davidoff. Beautiful yellow or orangish wrapper. Grown with proprietary Connecticut seed under the cloud cover of ecuador. Floral and brady notes with some cedar sweetness. Best with mild or mild to medium bodied blend.

Habano Ecuador (seco, viso, ligero)- the industry's most popular wrapper found on a slew of blends including tatuaje, man o war, Oliva Serie V and a host of others. Excellent color and uniformity. Classic cuban seed notes of spiciness balanced by sweet notes of woods and nut undertones. This is wrapper is very well balanced and when fermented properly provides a creamy yet thick smoke that coats the palate.

Sumatra Ecuador (seco, viso, ligero) - Sumatra seeds grown under Ecuadors famous cloud cover. The core elements of this leaf are leather tones and some sweetness balanced by just the right amount of spiciness. As a seco, it tends to be bitter but as an upper priming in harmoniously balances a complex bouquet of flavors displaying an impressive range. Some examples are Man O War Armada (ligero), La Herencia Cubana (visa), Ashton VSG and many more.

Pennsylvania Broadleaf Maduro - large leaves grown in Pennsylvania and cured over hickory fires. This leaf is as sweet as it is spicy with definable woody, hickory notes. Examples include Diesel Unholy Cocktail, Rocky Patel Winter Blend and 5 Vegas Gold Maduro.

Habano Copan Honduras (seco, visa, ligero) - also referred to as "La Entrada", this is a particularly unique wrapper that has become popular in the past 24 months. Grown by Oliva Tampa one of Honduras' oldest growing regions, this wrapper has all the elegance of Habano Ecuador yet teams with flavor and complexity as well as strength. Examples include Diesel Unlimited and Man O War Puro Authentico.

Jalapa Habano (seco, visa, ligero) - Nicaraguas northern most growing region, its red soils and shade growing produce a very sweet habano seed leaf that is thin for ideal combustion and shows notes of cedar and hints of red pepper. Also available in limited quantities of sun grown for an even richer experience. Examples include Padron natural, gran habano corojo, cuba libre one, cu avana intensus and many others. Nicaraguas most popular wrapper growing region.

Esteli Sun Grown Habano (seco, viso, ligero) - this wrapper has a very, very small yield. So small in fact that I can't name a single cigar on the market that uses it on account on how limited it is. Esteli is known for growing nicaraguas most robust fillers, every year, 1 to 2% of the crop is over wrapper grade and could be used as wrapper. A forum blend with this would be the first blend I know if in the industry actively using Esteli Sun Grown.

San Andres maduro - found on cigars like Padron Maduro, Nica Libre and Liga Privada Under Crown, this wrapper is very popular among maduro fans but its appearance is not the rich, espresso brown most maduros may present. Grown in Mexico from proprietary seeds planted in San Andres for nearly 150 years, this wrapper has excellent combustion with a pleasant sweetness and is ideal for medium bodied maduros which don't lake anything in flavor department.

Mexican Maroon- Steming from the same plant as the San Andres, these lower priming leaves take on more of a reddish hugh than its darker counterpart. The flavor is somewhat bitter yet carrys undertones of sweetness and spice. It is most noted for having a long and distinct, bitter finish.

Cameroon - Sumatra seeds planted in Africa and harvested by a network of small independent farmers, Cameroon wrapper can be found on a host of cigars including Cohiba Red Dot, Fuente and Partagas. Cameroon wrapper is toothy and oily yet very thin and delicate making if flavorful with ideal combustion. Most popular in the late 1990's, this wrapper today still remains a popular choice for master blenders, favored for its sweet cedary notes and long finish.

Dominican Criollo (seco, viso, ligero) - most coveted as a filler, there is a small wrapper yield of this tobacco making it somewhat limited. While it is not much to look at, it is a rich leaf with a distinct bitter spiciness that delivers in both flavor and body. Many cigars from Pinar del Rio as well as Vegas Relic use a wrapper such as this.

gio164

San Andres maduro

Alex Svenson

Remember, this is not a voting thread, simply a discussion thread. There was some criticism about last time just jumping right into votes without allowing for the open sharing of ideas and opinions. We will open this up for a vote Tuesday, but please for now, use this thread as an open place to discuss and debate.

danielzreyes

Habano Ecuador

Toombes

Mata Fina or Cameroon, love them both. Geez, Alex, you're not making this easy for me...

danielzreyes

danielzreyes:

Habano Ecuador

Tatuaje, man o war, Oliva Serie V. That's why this would be my choice.

scarlin

danielzreyes:

danielzreyes:

Habano Ecuador

Tatuaje, man o war, Oliva Serie V. That's why this would be my choice.

Yea I say we go with the Habano Ecuador as well. It seems to be the most balanced stick as well. Not overly spicy or woody. As for Visa or Ligero I would go with Ligero. That is my opinion. Thoughts?

Though if we go maduro then San Andres hands down.

Toombes

scarlin:

danielzreyes:

danielzreyes:

Habano Ecuador

Tatuaje, man o war, Oliva Serie V. That's why this would be my choice.

Yea I say we go with the Habano Ecuador as well. It seems to be the most balanced stick as well. Not overly spicy or woody. As for Visa or Ligero I would go with Ligero. That is my opinion. Thoughts?

Though if we go maduro then San Andres hands down.

OK, you convinced me. Can I change my vote?

Alex Svenson

scarlin:

danielzreyes:

danielzreyes:

Habano Ecuador

Tatuaje, man o war, Oliva Serie V. That's why this would be my choice.

Yea I say we go with the Habano Ecuador as well. It seems to be the most balanced stick as well. Not overly spicy or woody. As for Visa or Ligero I would go with Ligero. That is my opinion. Thoughts?

We are early on enough that wrapper selection can be balanced by which primings for fillers we pick. For example, if you guys are set on a ligero wrapper, we can do it but will need to use more secos and visos when we pick our fillers to balance it out and achieve the body which is currently being voted on. You guys know me to be a ligero junky LOL but only when it is properly fermented so it can burn nicely. Pickin ga ligero in the forum blend would be unique because there aren't any real production cigars out there that use ligero wrapper because of the limited yield. When you consider that 15% of a crop is ligero and also, when sun grown, 10% is wrapper grade, you are working with very small inventories. Because the forum blend is a small batch we could use Ligero wrapper which by in large is not common at all. Only cigar I can think of off the top of my head that uses Ligero wrapper is Armada and maybe a few other limited releases. Not a bad thought. I will leave it to you guys. We are so early on that whatever we pick for wrapper aside from Connecticut or Indonesia we can achieve the strength profile already voted on.

Direwolf

I'm loving this for the fact that I'll be seeing a cigar made from the beginning to the end. Awesome learning experience.

docbp87

Cameroon. Too many cigars on the market already with Habano Ecuador. Every third cigar out there has a Habano Ecuador wrapper now. Booooorrrriiiinnnnnggggg.

Toombes

Direwolf:

I'm loving this for the fact that I'll be seeing a cigar made from the beginning to the end. Awesome learning experience.

+10000! I'm thrilled to be a part of this, since it's my first time having a hand in helping decide the outcome of a stick of our beloved leaf.

Gray4lines

Alex Svenson:

We are early on enough that wrapper selection can be balanced by which primings for fillers we pick. For example, if you guys are set on a ligero wrapper, we can do it but will need to use more secos and visos when we pick our fillers to balance it out and achieve the body which is currently being voted on. You guys know me to be a ligero junky LOL but only when it is properly fermented so it can burn nicely. Pickin ga ligero in the forum blend would be unique because there aren't any real production cigars out there that use ligero wrapper because of the limited yield. When you consider that 15% of a crop is ligero and also, when sun grown, 10% is wrapper grade, you are working with very small inventories. Because the forum blend is a small batch we could use Ligero wrapper which by in large is not common at all. Only cigar I can think of off the top of my head that uses Ligero wrapper is Armada and maybe a few other limited releases. Not a bad thought. I will leave it to you guys. We are so early on that whatever we pick for wrapper aside from Connecticut or Indonesia we can achieve the strength profile aready voted on.

that's neat that we have the option topick a wrapper that is typically unused due to availability, since this is such a small batch. Speaking of which, how many are gonna be made, and continued for how long? This is really cool Alex, thanks for taking the time to do something like this.

and I think I'm inagreement with a few of you guys so far, habano Ecuador. It looks like it'd be neat to use a ligero wrapper for the above mentioned reasons.

beatnic

docbp87:

Cameroon. Too many cigars on the market already with Habano Ecuador. Every third cigar out there has a Habano Ecuador wrapper now. Booooorrrriiiinnnnnggggg.

+1

RCY Cigars

I'm torn between three, Criollo, Esteli Sun Grown and Cameroon. All for different reasons. But after reading your comments Alex on explaining them. Cameroon sounds like my choice, sweet cedary notes and long finish sounds tastey.

Alex Svenson

Doc Check your PM by the way.

Imgembo

does the sun grown estli habano sound intresting to any one else? could be the first blend to ever use it! however i am curious what this would do to the price of the stick.

Russ55

beatnic:

docbp87:

Cameroon. Too many cigars on the market already with Habano Ecuador. Every third cigar out there has a Habano Ecuador wrapper now. Booooorrrriiiinnnnnggggg.

+1

I like this idea, but as long as the blend is strong and interesting. There's too many weak cameroons out there that all taste the same. By weak I don't necessarily mean just strength, but complexity as well.

I also like the idea of Esteli Sun Grown Habano, and maybe Dominican Criollo.

Alex Svenson

IMHO, Cameroon is going to disqualify a lot of people on taste. While it was hugely popular 10 years ago and still is among some serious die hard aficionados with very developed palates, it has a very distinct taste that based on sales, I can tell you is not in favor with todays cigar market. If you guys are wanting to get off the beaten path, Cameroon will do it, but also consider Habano Brazil, Esteli Sun Grown or even Copan. those are used on a small handful if any blends and are more in tune with the rich habano seed I see in the market. Don't get me wrong, this is your project, not mine but I did promise to give my 2 cents and steer you where I could.

dennisking

Esteli Habano Sun Grown viso gets my vote. I like the idea of being first with something.
other vets can chime in but I personally recommend the Viso priming for the burn quality since some ligero wrappers don't burn as even, at least from what I understand. I also like the Habano Copan Honduras as I really enjoy the MOW PA. If there are two choices, I would go Habano and San Andres Maduro.

bandyt09

docbp87:

Cameroon.

I'm with doc on this one, the Cameroon for the ideal combustion point and the potential to put a little age on it due to the oilyness(?). Also, a nice long finish for me is a +

laker1963

I would love to see a Sumatra Ecuador or Sumatra Ecuador for the wrapper. I think they are both well balanced and would be easy to combine with some different fillers.

Vulchor

Im ok with cameroon......but Ill throw Sumatra out for discussion. Some fine sticks mentioned by Alex, in addition to RP Edge Sumatra and some great others. It has a hint of sweetness and great aging potential IMO. I also find it to be very balanced and consistent stick to stick.

Vulchor

I see Laker hit it about 20 seconds before I did. Sumatras are really a nice profile, check out a few and see its a nice list. Nothing overpowering but tons of flavor.

dennisking

I like the Cammy wrapper idea but it takes so much age to make them less twangy and bitter. I prefer a savory, not sweet wrapper.

ndhaon91

Easy call for me...

Esteli Sun Grown. If we're going to do our own thing, why not make it one of a kind?

The Kid

docbp87:

Cameroon. Too many cigars on the market already with Habano Ecuador. Every third cigar out there has a Habano Ecuador wrapper now. Booooorrrriiiinnnnnggggg.

I agree with not using the ecuadorian habano wrap, I am fond of cameroon too, but would rather go with the sumatra on this one, I may be wrong but Im thinkin the sumatra will be more forgiving with the overall blend.

Roberto99

laker1963:

I would love to see a Sumatra Ecuador or Sumatra Ecuador for the wrapper. I think they are both well balanced and would be easy to combine with some different fillers.

+1, but I might also be interested in the esteli sun grown if I had an idea of what that would taste like.

bbass2

After reading the descriptions I jotted down the sumatra, san andres maduro, and cameroon. I'm leaning towards the sumatra right now just because it's a little different that what I normally smoke.

rwheelwright

I'm a Sumatra and Cameroon fan but one cigar I really liked was the Patel Brothers with the PA Broadleaf. That would be something that I would like to see if not Sumatra.

docbp87

Alex Svenson:

IMHO, Cameroon is going to disqualify a lot of people on taste. While it was hugely popular 10 years ago and still is among some serious die hard aficionados with very developed palates, it has a very distinct taste that based on sales, I can tell you is not in favor with todays cigar market. If you guys are wanting to get off the beaten path, Cameroon will do it, but also consider Habano Brazil, Esteli Sun Grown or even Copan. those are used on a small handful if any blends and are more in tune with the rich habano seed I see in the market. Don't get me wrong, this is your project, not mine but I did promise to give my 2 cents and steer you where I could.

All really good points. In truth, Cameroon might not be the best option to represent the board. That said, I still would swing for something a little off the beaten path, like the Brazilian Mata Fina or the Honduran Copan.

And PM back to you Alex.