Forum Blend Phase 4 - Filler Discussion

Alex Svenson

Time to discuss filler. THIS IS NOT A VOTING THREAD. Just an open discussion to share thoughts and ideas. Voting will open in a day or two. Note, as of now we will be getting toros, lanceros and torpedos in a medium to full bodied blend with a Sumatra Ecuador Oscuro (high priming) wrapper. When the voting gets going, here is how it is going to work, there will be three seperate votes. First vote, filler 1, second vote filler 2 and third vote filler 3. It is pointless for us to tally up the top three as they may not blend well with each other so I think we need to take this one filler leaf at a time. When voting, we are going to vote only on leaves, not primings and proportions. I will need to set those so they blend as ideally as possible and achieve the medium to full body we are looking for. So let the discussion begin.

Arapiraca - Found on CAO Black VR and Cigar.com Brazilian Label. Sweet maduro grown in brazil. Sugary qualities and an oily wrapper. Sweet with notes of wood and and a light peat and maple.

Mata Fina - Found on cigars like CAO Brazilia for example. Brazilian wrapper with a nice light sweetness but a core of chewy, leathery flavors and light spiciness.

Indonesia - Thin and somewhat blotchy wrapper. It is slightly sweet yet bitter also with a sharp finish. Found mainly on cheap cigars. IE Flor de Oliva.

Pennsylvania Broadleaf Maduro - large leaves grown in Pennsylvania and cured over hickory fires. This leaf is as sweet as it is spicy with definable woody, hickory notes. Examples include Diesel Unholy Cocktail, Rocky Patel Winter Blend and 5 Vegas Gold Maduro.

Habano Copan Honduras - also referred to as "La Entrada", this is a particularly unique wrapper that has become popular in the past 24 months. Grown by Oliva Tampa one of Honduras' oldest growing regions, this wrapper has all the elegance of Habano Ecuador yet teams with flavor and complexity as well as strength. Examples include Diesel Unlimited and Man O War Puro Authentico.

Jalapa Habano - Nicaraguas northern most growing region, its red soils and shade growing produce a very sweet habano seed leaf that is thin for ideal combustion and shows notes of cedar and hints of red pepper. Also available in limited quantities of sun grown for an even richer experience. Examples include Padron natural, gran habano corojo, cuba libre one, cu avana intensus and many others. Nicaraguas most popular wrapper growing region.

Esteli Habano - this wrapper has a very, very small yield. So small in fact that I can't name a single cigar on the market that uses it on account on how limited it is. Esteli is known for growing nicaraguas most robust fillers, every year, 1 to 2% of the crop is over wrapper grade and could be used as wrapper. A forum blend with this would be the first blend I know if in the industry actively using Esteli Sun Grown.

San Andres maduro - found on cigars like Padron Maduro, Nica Libre and Liga Privada Under Crown, this wrapper is very popular among maduro fans but its appearance is not the rich, espresso brown most maduros may present. Grown in Mexico from proprietary seeds planted in San Andres for nearly 150 years, this wrapper has excellent combustion with a pleasant sweetness and is ideal for medium bodied maduros which don't lake anything in flavor department.

Mexican Maroon- Steming from the same plant as the San Andres, these lower priming leaves take on more of a reddish hugh than its darker counterpart. The flavor is somewhat bitter yet carrys undertones of sweetness and spice. It is most noted for having a long and distinct, bitter finish.

Cameroon - Sumatra seeds planted in Africa and harvested by a network of small independent farmers, Cameroon wrapper can be found on a host of cigars including Cohiba Red Dot, Fuente and Partagas. Cameroon wrapper is toothy and oily yet very thin and delicate making if flavorful with ideal combustion. Most popular in the late 1990's, this wrapper today still remains a popular choice for master blenders, favored for its sweet cedary notes and long finish.

Dominican Criollo - most coveted as a filler, there is a small wrapper yield of this tobacco making it somewhat limited. While it is not much to look at, it is a rich leaf with a distinct bitter spiciness that delivers in both flavor and body. Many cigars from Pinar del Rio as well as Vegas Relic use a wrapper such as this.

Habano Condega - Nicaraguan filler from the north of Nicaragua near the Honduras Boarder. Found in almost every Nicaraguan blend, this filler is a main stay in many premium cigars as it provides a smooth base of flavor with some sweet and spiciness.

Habano Ometepe - Nicaraguas famous sweet water island. This tobacco is robust, sweet and hits you in the sinuses.

Peruvian - an exotic and toasty tobacco with some sweet cedary notes and floral tones.

Panamanian - an exotic and sweet tobacco. Thick smoke with notes of maple and a light peatiness.,br>
Columbian Cubita - an exotic leaf that is toasty and bready with slight pepper tones.

Alex Svenson

I am going to try to lead us. Even though it may be very appealing to do so, dont load up on exotics. They really alter a blend and dont play well together. I would consider ometepe, mata fina, arapiraca, panama, peru and columbia to be on the exotic side. I would not double up on any of these. not to say they are exotic tasting, but they have a very strong influence on a blend and need to be used in moderation.

Alex Svenson

I also think Condega is a must. Great base for a blend.

The Kid

I was thinking condega too, or any habano either from jalapa, esteli, or copan honduran, I favor the Jalapa or Condega.(edit oops) Mainly for the reason given in the description from what Alex has said, and from my smoking pleasure.

KCW

OK. This is the part where I really have no clue. I would have to guess at Dominican Criollo (for the simple reason, I love Dominican Cigars), Cameroon (based soley on your description) & (based on your suggestion) Habano Condega

rwheelwright

My first vote would be for cameroon. I think if we have a strong sumatra almost maduro wrapper a little sweetness might work out nice.

RBeckom

I know nothing......but I'm learning fast from these threads.

Thanks for this chance Alex.

The Kid

rwheelwright:

My first vote would be for cameroon. I think if we have a strong sumatra almost maduro wrapper a little sweetness might work out nice.

Interesting do you think perhaps using cameroon as a binder, that would do the trick?? I know were talking filler and not the binder but perhaps by discussing more of the components we can figure out what were trying to accomplish,, for xample by using a cameroon or criollo binder we can use nicaraguan filler or some combination thereof, In all reality I really dont know where I'm going with my ideas either I am gaining enjoyment just from the discussion and the creation process. I was hoping to throw some brazillian into the mix but doesnt look like its an option..
In the words of the "Church Lady" Lets discuss...

RCY Cigars

rwheelwright:

My first vote would be for cameroon. I think if we have a strong sumatra almost maduro wrapper a little sweetness might work out nice.

Seeing the route we are going, I'm thinking along those lines too. Or maybe, Arapiraca. Have to think on this some more. Of course I could be way off.

rwheelwright

The Kid:

rwheelwright:

My first vote would be for cameroon. I think if we have a strong sumatra almost maduro wrapper a little sweetness might work out nice.

Interesting do you think perhaps using cameroon as a binder, that would do the trick?? I know were talking filler and not the binder but perhaps by discussing more of the components we can figure out what were trying to accomplish,, for xample by using a cameroon or criollo binder we can use nicaraguan filler or some combination thereof, In all reality I really dont know where I'm going with my ideas either I am gaining enjoyment just from the discussion and the creation process. I was hoping to throw some brazillian into the mix but doesnt look like its an option..
In the words of the "Church Lady" Lets discuss...

It's possible. I know so little!

rwheelwright

RCY Cigars:

rwheelwright:

My first vote would be for cameroon. I think if we have a strong sumatra almost maduro wrapper a little sweetness might work out nice.

Seeing the route we are going, I'm thinking along those lines too. Or maybe, Arapiraca. Have to think on this some more. Of course I could be way off.

That was my 3rd choice!

RCY Cigars

I keep reading over and over Alex description of everything. This sounds good too, Peruvian - an exotic and toasty tobacco with some sweet cedary notes and floral tones.

The Kid

RCY Cigars:

I keep reading over and over Alex description of everything. This sounds good too, Peruvian - an exotic and toasty tobacco with some sweet cedary notes and floral tones.

I believe this is one of the reasons I love the 5 vegas cask strength!! I think the graycliff 1666 has peruvian filler too..(edit) one more thing then Ill shut up,, I think if we do use an exotic perhaps we should use it as the binder,, but I too am totally green and maybe Alex or some of those with more experience can touch on this,,,(edit) Ok I lied one more thing Maybe Im thinking too much but do combustion and rates of burn play into any of this and more specifically into the binder?

CvilleE

Would the Habano Copan Honduras and the Esteli Habano par well together?

xmacro

I too, have almost no knowledge of this area of cigar rolling (Kuzi, paging Mr. Kuzi) . . . . but since it's voting, and knowledge isn't a pre-requisite, I'm leaning towards Habano Copan Honduras, mostly because the MOW PA and DU are two of my favorite, especially with a few months of age on them, the MOW PA gets so much better, and the DU becomes wonderfully smooth and pleasant

For the most part, I'd like a cigar that's smooth. I really hate pepper bombs - from having to spit when I light them up to reaching for my drink every 5 seconds, I'd like this forum blend to turn into something that I can smoke without reaching for my drink after every puff and that will age well. Besides, there are enough nicotine/pepper bombs on the market already for those whose tastes stray that way.

CvilleE

CvilleE:

Would the Habano Copan Honduras and the Esteli Habano par well together?

Just wanted to add that based off Alex comments the Habano Condega and the Esteli Habano or the Condega and Copan sound good to me but I know so little and is there anything out there to compare with? Also how many fillers are we looking to add?

boydmcgowan

Since we're looking for a medium/full blend, and we already have a ligero wrapper I would think we should include a heavy dose of Honduran fillers. I think it would be a nice compliment to the Sumatra Wrapper. Both are strong but there will be no flavors standing out from the others.

Thoughts?

wwhwang

I admit I have very little knowledge as far as fillers and binders go, but is Ecuadorian connie a decent candidate as filler? If not, then Peruvian is almost always a good choice. I seem to like those most of the time.

KCW

xmacro:

For the most part, I'd like a cigar that's smooth. I really hate pepper bombs - from having to spit when I light them up to reaching for my drink every 5 seconds, I'd like this forum blend to turn into something that I can smoke without reaching for my drink after every puff and that will age well. Besides, there are enough nicotine/pepper bombs on the market already for those whose tastes stray that way.

I hear ya. For me, thats why I love Fuente stuff.. Still strong yet, smooth & many are just simply fantastic.

JDH

I would suggest that the Indonesian leaf be summarily eliminated for consideration, and that we strongly resist the use of exotics, as Alex recommends. As I read Alex’s post, it appears there will be three filler leafs used, and that accounts for the three votes on three different leaves.

As Alex suggests, I think we should strongly consider the use of Habano Condega. Additionally, I would suggest the use of Estili and Jalapa Habano leaf, reserving the use of a Cameroon for the binder.

I still can't believe you guys didn't want the wrapper to be the same leaf used on the San Lotano Habano, but that's the way these things go.

JDH

KCW:

xmacro:

For the most part, I'd like a cigar that's smooth. I really hate pepper bombs - from having to spit when I light them up to reaching for my drink every 5 seconds, I'd like this forum blend to turn into something that I can smoke without reaching for my drink after every puff and that will age well. Besides, there are enough nicotine/pepper bombs on the market already for those whose tastes stray that way.

I hear ya. For me, thats why I love Fuente stuff.. Still strong yet, smooth & many are just simply fantastic.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yea Baby!

Mephisto

JDH:

I would suggest that the Indonesian leaf be summarily eliminated for consideration, and that we strongly resist the use of exotics, as Alex recommends. As I read Alex’s post, it appears there will be three filler leafs used, and that accounts for the three votes on three different leaves.

As Alex suggests, I think we should strongly consider the use of Habano Condega. . .

+1. The Habano Condega seems like a good place to start. It seems like it might accomodate a larger array of choices for the other two fillers.

JDH

I'd like to ask alex directly - If the Habano Condega is chosen, and the ultimate goal is a straight-up medium cigar (smooth, without being a pepper bomb), would it be a good idea to include either the Jalapa or Estili leafs, (given our choice of wrapper leaf)?

beatnic

Alex Svenson:

I am going to try to lead us.

That's why you are our hero, sir.

NightHawk

love to see some habano included, since we are going with the sumatra wrapper. maybe the habano condega or ometepe. habano flavors from some of the filler with the sumatra wrapper?

beatnic

I've voted on the size, and wrapper. I am totally at the mercy of more refined smokers from this point on. I give my vote to Kuzi.

docbp87

Condega, Honduras Copan, and Brazilian Mata Fina are all fillers that stand out to me right away. As for Cameroon, my opinion is to save it for the binder. My only potential concern with any of the three fillers I mentioned above is the Mata Fina. As Alex said, it has a distinct, though maybe not exotic character... For those curious, it is the binder used on most all (maybe ALL) of the Liga Privada cigars from Drew Estate, and is a component in the Undercrown blend fillers. Food for thought.

The Kid

docbp87:

Condega, Honduras Copan, and Brazilian Mata Fina are all fillers that stand out to me right away. As for Cameroon, my opinion is to save it for the binder. My only potential concern with any of the three fillers I mentioned above is the Mata Fina. As Alex said, it has a distinct, though maybe not exotic character... For those curious, it is the binder used on most all (maybe ALL) of the Liga Privada cigars from Drew Estate, and is a component in the Undercrown blend fillers. Food for thought.

I missed the Brazillian...Im in favor of your ideas...What are your thoughts on the peruvian as a component in the filler, with either the cameroon or Brazillian as a binder.. not suggesting this just would like to hear your thoughts

Alex Svenson

JDH:

I'd like to ask alex directly - If the Habano Condega is chosen, and the ultimate goal is a straight-up medium cigar (smooth, without being a pepper bomb), would it be a good idea to include either the Jalapa or Estili leafs, (given our choice of wrapper leaf)?

Condega blends well with everything. Copan also plays well with everything. The truth is, you guys can pick pretty much any tobaccos on this list at this point and I can get it to the body we need it to be by using different plant priming's and different proportions. if you guys are talking Sumatra Ecuador wrapper and Cameroon binder then I strongly suggest Cuban seed fillers. The Seed used to grow Cameroon tobacco is the same seed they grow in Ecuador. Sumatra. Therefore, to ensure the best complexity, I would focus on a base of Cuban seed tobaccos and avoid exotics. again, that is assuming you guys do want to go with the Cameroon binder. ultimately, this is your project so do not let me dissuade you. I am only chiming in because someone asked.

OchoZacho

beatnic:

I've voted on the size, and wrapper. I am totally at the mercy of more refined smokers from this point on. I give my vote to Kuzi.

+1 Bring up the rear Matt!

docbp87

Alex Svenson:

The Seed used to grow Cameroon tobacco is the same seed they grow in Ecuador.

I feel like jigsaw pieces in my brain are finally fitting together, thanks to this forum blend process... the similarities between Ecuadoran Sumatra and Cameroon... sweet nutty notes especially... it's all clicking!

Thanks for this awesome opportunity, and masterclass Alex!