Aging in Cigar Boxes

webmost

So here's the plan: I've got a surrogate gardener who sprouted Goldie's Habano seeds which I snitched from Rain's pass. She's gonna plant a bunch. I'm digging up a string of yard myself here where I can murder some innocent sproutlings. I'll cure the leaf in the garage attic where's there's no insulation and it gets hot as Hades. I'll set the household humidifier up there. It ought to feel like Nica freaking ragua up there. Long about September, when it's cured, I'll roll maybe a couple hundred cigars. That's the plan.

Now here's where the question comes in: You may have noticed I skipped a very important step right there where the cured tobacco ferments and ages before rolling. Thing is, it's gonna get too cold for that out there. Nor can I imagine that the RedHead who enjoys the privilege of laundering my skid marks would be pleased if I brought that stink inside the house.

So here is what I am thinking: The B&M nearby sells empty cigar boxes for a buck a pop. If I keep my eyes peeled, I can snatch the occasional well built tight sealing cedar lined box with a clasp and put my two hundred in those. Each box a water pillow. Check on them weekly and stir the contents to circulate air. AA bug in one does not have to affect the rest. Mold in one does not have to affect the rest. Set them on shelves here in the closet. Couple years later, voila. WebMost Sotweed Reserva Limitada Especial.

What do you think? Would my uppowoc age as well in cylinders as opposed to bales?

kuzi16

if you want to ferment you may be able to fake it a bit.
though your results may not be amazing. depending on how much leaf you have you can cook them in the oven.

i know it can be done but im not 100% on how. lemme get back to you.

Gray4lines

Cooking sounds like a good idea, at least to try on some of the tobacco... like cavendish pipe tobacco, or steaming maduros. Maybe cheating, but probably worth a shot!

Would a cooler work for storing/fermenting. We know they hold humidity... and would insulate some from temps, you coukd maybe even move to a warmer part of the house since a cooler will pretty much seal in any smell. Or what if you used like a heat lamp (on low) or something in the attic?

seems like itd take ALOT of little cigar boxes to store that much tobacco.

kuzi16

im not sure what your crop yield will be. it may not work in an oven depending on size of the crop. and to be honest, im not sure exactly how it would work. you would also need an oven that gets very low. like 108 - 140 low
you would pack the tobacco together as tight as you could and when the temp got to about 130 ish on the inside you would pull out the the tobacco re organize and place back in the oven. again this would be over the course of several days so an oven not in use would be better.
of course that would put most of the project out of reach for most people.
you would also have to regulate the humidity... a task that is more difficult in that kind of environment than i care t imagine. but it can be done.

Rhamlin

You might try pming Long Ashes he's done it once or twice. He also has that site " crap cigars" you can probably get ahold of him that way. Somewhere he has a thread all about it.

ddubridge

Rhamlin:

You might try pming Long Ashes he's done it once or twice. He also has that site " crap cigars" you can probably get ahold of him that way. Somewhere he has a thread all about it.

http://www.cigar.com/cs/forums/post/546658.aspx...One of my favorites. Good thinking Ricky. Happy birthday brother.

webmost

Yes I have read that thread before. Been to crapnetwork many times it's a gas. Love them guys. Long Ashes used an old fridge with a crockpot to speed up his fermentation. That's a common way to do it. My old fridge is full of beer and Angry Orchard Hard Ginger Cider and Polar Bars and such. Don't know where I'd put another old fridge. Besides, I am a dedicated minimalist. Factories use a steaming hot room in a steaming hot climate, stack bales up, and turn their stack from time to time. Gotta smell wonderful, that job. Your Norte Americanos tend to use at least a metal trash can with a light bulb for heat and a can of water for humidity. Some smoke their stuff in a cooker. I am following a thread on another forum where a guy is building a thousand dollar automated plywood kiln with heat and humidity controlled by a laptop. That's the extreme. I intend the opposite extreme. No molds. No kiln. No cooker. No fridge. No hurry. Just leaves and hands over time. Long as it's just a hobby, you might as well do the way you enjoy. I like rowboats, not speedboats. Rowboats are peaceful as water. The two go together. It's a calming experience. The idea of admiring my work for a couple years, periodically opening each box, smelling and stirring the contents, periodically firing one up just to test progress, until the stash if finally ripe, that all seems more like the cigar experience than how fast can I get these done.

So. Back to the question, that is, if we can get this question back on track:

Would tobacco satisfactorily age in the stick instead of the stack?

Gray4lines

Oh ok, so you intend to roll fresh, then let them ferment as rolled cigars? Hmmmm... theyd have to stay pretty moist, warm, and packed together, wouldnt they?

Just a thought, if they are fermented while already rolled, they will be very moist... come 2 years later when they dry out to a smokable level, would the filler leaves "shrink" enough to make them draw too loose? Would they "pull away" from the wrapper?

Im not saying I dont think itll work, just trying to think of what could maybe go wrong. Maybe kuz can come in and dismiss my fears.

kuzi16

webmost:

Would tobacco satisfactorily age in the stick instead of the stack?

no.
heat and pressure are not present. those are the two elements needed to create the tobacco we enjoy.
yes, the tobacco will age and in a way ferment, but not in the way that creates good flavors. unless you can find a way to ferment your tobacco you will end up with a very tannic and acrid smoke that does not burn correctly.

when tobacco is not fully fermented you are rolling with what is referred to as "crude" tobacco.

90+ Irishman

Gray4lines:

Oh ok, so you intend to roll fresh, then let them ferment as rolled cigars? Hmmmm... theyd have to stay pretty moist, warm, and packed together, wouldnt they?

Just a thought, if they are fermented while already rolled, they will be very moist... come 2 years later when they dry out to a smokable level, would the filler leaves "shrink" enough to make them draw too loose? Would they "pull away" from the wrapper?

Im not saying I dont think itll work, just trying to think of what could maybe go wrong. Maybe kuz can come in and dismiss my fears.

Once the tobacco is cured properly then YES it will ferment rolled in the "final" project just fine as compared to in bales. This has already been accomplished with great success in the industry with the Tatuaje La Vérité lines as that is how Pete Johnson/Don Pepín Garcia did that line. Pete once stated that he wanted to experiment with it an thought that it was a more "graceful" way to ferment and age the end result. Now this was done by Titans and masters of their own craft and I'm sure it wasn't perfect on even their first attempt, but the theory and even practice are sound and already proven in production. Just my two cents so hope that helps though.

Gray4lines

90+ Irishman:

Gray4lines:

Oh ok, so you intend to roll fresh, then let them ferment as rolled cigars? Hmmmm... theyd have to stay pretty moist, warm, and packed together, wouldnt they?

Just a thought, if they are fermented while already rolled, they will be very moist... come 2 years later when they dry out to a smokable level, would the filler leaves "shrink" enough to make them draw too loose? Would they "pull away" from the wrapper?

Im not saying I dont think itll work, just trying to think of what could maybe go wrong. Maybe kuz can come in and dismiss my fears.

Once the tobacco is cured properly then YES it will ferment rolled in the "final" project just fine as compared to in bales. This has already been accomplished with great success in the industry with the Tatuaje La Vérité lines as that is how Pete Johnson/Don Pepín Garcia did that line. Pete once stated that he wanted to experiment with it an thought that it was a more "graceful" way to ferment and age the end result. Now this was done by Titans and masters of their own craft and I'm sure it wasn't perfect on even their first attempt, but the theory and even practice are sound and already proven in production. Just my two cents so hope that helps though.

Ahh, thanks dude!

webmost

90+ Irishman:

Once the tobacco is cured properly then YES it will ferment rolled in the "final" project just fine as compared to in bales. This has already been accomplished with great success in the industry with the Tatuaje La Vérité lines as that is how Pete Johnson/Don Pepín Garcia did that line.

Here I am stuck between a rock and an Irishman. Kuzi is my rock and he says no. Irishman says yes, and presents us with an example.

So I google up the example, which takes me to the Tatuaje site, ( http://www.tatuajecigars.com/site/smokes/smokes.php?line=La Verite Vintage ) where I read a different story: "It wasn't until late 2008 while the tobacco was still under going fermentation that Pete realized the tobacco was smoking perfectly and would make a great single farm vintage cigar."

Then I land at HalfWheel where I read: "In early 2009, it was announced that Pete Johnson of Tatuaje Cigars would be incorporating a somewhat unique idea from the wine industry into the cigar world. He would be releasing a cigar named “La Vérité” (or “The Truth” in French) which would be totally comprised of tobacco from one farm in Estelí, Nicaragua (Pepín’s farm of La Estrella) and one single crop year. Every year, the cigars would be rolled and then aged in Master Cabinets for a whole year or more until the next year’s release; i.e. the 2008's were rolled in 2009 and released in 2010. This years release was rolled in 2010 and released in 2011. In fact, he is not only using tobacco from one year and one farm, he has also changed the traditional cigar aging process, which normally takes place in bales, and decided to let the tobacco age in the form of a complete cigar."

So was it already fermenting or not?

I know this much from personal experiment: I scored some brand new non aged FX Smiths direct from the factory. The owner there told me they can no longer afford to age the tobacco, cause the safety *** have4 just about taxed him out of business. FX smoked dang rough at first. Six months later, they were 80% improved. And that wasn't done by providing them any heat -- just a box. I also have my tainted cheroots I rolled from leaf I bought. They were pure horrible when I first rolled them because I got them too wet so they started to ferment all over again. I still have some, here eight months later. I can fire one up and see how it finished in the box. Haven't burnt one in a while.

Other than that, research continues. I can provide the heat to rolled product. Simple as storing it in the furnace room. I just can't provide pressure. Tough to imagine what that does. Hate to break down and do a fridge and crock pot thing. None of the guys at the cigar rolling forum have a notion one way or another. Hey, they are mostly daring all American innovators anyways. For example, there's guys there who age their leaf on dashboards. That's right. If you live in one of those parts of the country where everyone has two or three old cars parked in the weeds, it's natural to just lay your leaves on the dash for heat with a wet towel for humidity and there you bloody are. It's all for fun anyways, right? Like a cafe racer anything goes.

Gotta love it. Hillbilly ingenuity.

Anyhoo. Research continues. Thanks for your help.

laker1963

webmost:

90+ Irishman:

Once the tobacco is cured properly then YES it will ferment rolled in the "final" project just fine as compared to in bales. This has already been accomplished with great success in the industry with the Tatuaje La Vérité lines as that is how Pete Johnson/Don Pepín Garcia did that line.

Here I am stuck between a rock and an Irishman. Kuzi is my rock and he says no. Irishman says yes, and presents us with an example.

So I google up the example, which takes me to the Tatuaje site, ( http://www.tatuajecigars.com/site/smokes/smokes.php?line=La Verite Vintage ) where I read a different story: "It wasn't until late 2008 while the tobacco was still under going fermentation that Pete realized the tobacco was smoking perfectly and would make a great single farm vintage cigar."

Then I land at HalfWheel where I read: "In early 2009, it was announced that Pete Johnson of Tatuaje Cigars would be incorporating a somewhat unique idea from the wine industry into the cigar world. He would be releasing a cigar named “La Vérité” (or “The Truth” in French) which would be totally comprised of tobacco from one farm in Estelí, Nicaragua (Pepín’s farm of La Estrella) and one single crop year. Every year, the cigars would be rolled and then aged in Master Cabinets for a whole year or more until the next year’s release; i.e. the 2008's were rolled in 2009 and released in 2010. This years release was rolled in 2010 and released in 2011. In fact, he is not only using tobacco from one year and one farm, he has also changed the traditional cigar aging process, which normally takes place in bales, and decided to let the tobacco age in the form of a complete cigar."

So was it already fermenting or not?

I know this much from personal experiment: I scored some brand new non aged FX Smiths direct from the factory. The owner there told me they can no longer afford to age the tobacco, cause the safety *** have4 just about taxed him out of business. FX smoked dang rough at first. Six months later, they were 80% improved. And that wasn't done by providing them any heat -- just a box. I also have my tainted cheroots I rolled from leaf I bought. They were pure horrible when I first rolled them because I got them too wet so they started to ferment all over again. I still have some, here eight months later. I can fire one up and see how it finished in the box. Haven't burnt one in a while.

Other than that, research continues. I can provide the heat to rolled product. Simple as storing it in the furnace room. I just can't provide pressure. Tough to imagine what that does. Hate to break down and do a fridge and crock pot thing. None of the guys at the cigar rolling forum have a notion one way or another. Hey, they are mostly daring all American innovators anyways. For example, there's guys there who age their leaf on dashboards. That's right. If you live in one of those parts of the country where everyone has two or three old cars parked in the weeds, it's natural to just lay your leaves on the dash for heat with a wet towel for humidity and there you bloody are. It's all for fun anyways, right? Like a cafe racer anything goes.

Gotta love it. Hillbilly ingenuity.

Anyhoo. Research continues. Thanks for your help.

Very interesting read. I wonder if enough pressure could be applied by using clamps and sheets of plywood, sort of like a huge flower press type thing? Of course this would be back to the bale or at least piles of leaves not rolled cigars. Maybe this is a matter of symantics; the term fermentation may not be the correct term to use for what happens to the already rolled out sticks, but since so many companies "rest" their sticks for a period of time before release says that there is indeed something occurring during that time.

Gray4lines

I think laker is right... after the first curing.. how long is the "fermentation" stage? Maybe you could get by with a shortened fermentation, then roll them and let em finish off? Kuzis post seems to say nay on this.. but I am kind of confused as well on when the ferm stops and the rest or aging begins...

you could box press for pressure.

kuzi16

webmost:

So I google up the example, which takes me to the Tatuaje site, ( http://www.tatuajecigars.com/site/smokes/smokes.php?line=La Verite Vintage ) where I read a different story: "It wasn't until late 2008 while the tobacco was still under going fermentation that Pete realized the tobacco was smoking perfectly and would make a great single farm vintage cigar."

Then I land at HalfWheel where I read: "In early 2009, it was announced that Pete Johnson of Tatuaje Cigars would be incorporating a somewhat unique idea from the wine industry into the cigar world. He would be releasing a cigar named “La Vérité” (or “The Truth” in French) which would be totally comprised of tobacco from one farm in Estelí, Nicaragua (Pepín’s farm of La Estrella) and one single crop year. Every year, the cigars would be rolled and then aged in Master Cabinets for a whole year or more until the next year’s release; i.e. the 2008's were rolled in 2009 and released in 2010. This years release was rolled in 2010 and released in 2011. In fact, he is not only using tobacco from one year and one farm, he has also changed the traditional cigar aging process, which normally takes place in bales, and decided to let the tobacco age in the form of a complete cigar."

age in bales. not ferment. you dont ferment in bales. you ferment in hands built into pilones. it can take as little as 60 days to ferment tobacco.

webmost:

I know this much from personal experiment: I scored some brand new non aged FX Smiths direct from the factory. The owner there told me they can no longer afford to age the tobacco, cause the safety *** have4 just about taxed him out of business. FX smoked dang rough at first. Six months later, they were 80% improved. And that wasn't done by providing them any heat -- just a box. I also have my tainted cheroots I rolled from leaf I bought. They were pure horrible when I first rolled them because I got them too wet so they started to ferment all over again. I still have some, here eight months later. I can fire one up and see how it finished in the box. Haven't burnt one in a while.

again its an age thing not a fermentation thing. if they are fresh rolled, there will be improvement over time. many factories will age tobacco in bales and the again cigars post roll. if they ferment, forgo the age in bales and the post roll age, then the tobacco will "age well" and improve drastically over time. tobacco that is unfermented and made into cigars will need decades for it to reach what most of us would call "smokable"

webmost:

there's guys there who age their leaf on dashboards. That's right. If you live in one of those parts of the country where everyone has two or three old cars parked in the weeds, it's natural to just lay your leaves on the dash for heat with a wet towel for humidity and there you bloody are. It's all for fun anyways, right?

wow.
just wow.

webmost

I seem to be beating a dead horse and getting more confused. I suppose what we have here is variable terminology. Just like the guys on the tobacco growing site who use high or low "case" to describe how damp a leaf is. Never heard dampness called case before. Took me a while to figure that beast out.

So you pluck the leaves and hang them to dry slow, damp and hot, so that they turn brown over time. Let's call that "curing".

Then the harshness needs to break down. What everyone else does in a box, like a fridge or kiln, or steamy warehouse. Let's call that "fermentation".

Then they need to mellow a while. Let's call that "aging".

Somewhere in the mix you're going to roll them.

What I was proposing was cure, roll, ferment, age.
You are saying it has to go cure, ferment, roll, age.

Looks like I'm in the market for a broken old fridge and crock pot.

macs-smokes

Craigslist? Or dirt road your choice for fridge...crock pot... steal wife's while she's not looking... I am just being the smart alec I am supposed to be. But I am seriously interested in your progress.

mmccartneydc

Find one of those guys using his dashboard, I'm sure there's an old fridge right next to the car and not being used!

webmost

Yep. If you can get past the dog chained to an engine block.