Real Unemployment Rate?

stephen_hannibal

I was doing some reading and the propaganda that the government put out about 10% unemployment rate doesn't seem to add up.
If we are loosing jobs faster than creating jobs how has the unemployment rate not changed for the past year?
(this is respectively)

I figured I'd ask you guys seeing as how socially minded you seem...

kuzi16

unemployment has to do with the number of people actively seeking a job. there are hundreds of thousands of people that have given up looking. since they are no longer looking they are not counted.

gmill880

Unemployment in the county I live in is the 4th highest in NC at 15.9 % !!! Makes me even more thankful for hooking back up with my old company !!!

jsnake

Government propaganda at its best. Economy is getting better but we lost 85,000 more jobs in December alone. How does that work? My employer is laying off thousands. I don't see sh#t getting better and neither does anyone I know living in the real world.

dennisking

In Oregon, you are only considered unemployed for the first 90 days, then they quit counting you. If we have a stated unemployment rate of 10% and that's only for people in the first 90days of unemployment, how many are on that list that have been unemployed longer. More like 25%

jsnake

I don't get state unemployment so I don't think we are even counted. My employment comes from the Railroad Retirement Board which we pay into. I get less then people on state unemployment but that is just how it is.

kaspera79

Also not included in the unemployment rate is the " under-employed ".. Highly skilled People who have exhausted their benifits and have since taken much lower paying jobs just to survive, Such as Doctors who end up driving a taxi , or, people who are on staff as Temp workers but only get called a few times a month.

cabinetmaker

kaspera79:

Also not included in the unemployment rate is the " under-employed ".. Highly skilled People who have exhausted their benifits and have since taken much lower paying jobs just to survive, Such as Doctors who end up driving a taxi , or, people who are on staff as Temp workers but only get called a few times a month.

Unfortunately, then only growth area is Gov't work who we all get to pay for.

phobicsquirrel

kuzi16:

unemployment has to do with the number of people actively seeking a job. there are hundreds of thousands of people that have given up looking. since they are no longer looking they are not counted.

Yeah, the number is very optimistic. Some reports say it's around 17%. I find it very saddening that companies are still letting people go and even though a bunch are bringing in great profits are still not hiring. Good thing is around me, I see a lot of projects going on.

phobicsquirrel

cabinetmaker:

kaspera79:

Also not included in the unemployment rate is the " under-employed ".. Highly skilled People who have exhausted their benifits and have since taken much lower paying jobs just to survive, Such as Doctors who end up driving a taxi , or, people who are on staff as Temp workers but only get called a few times a month.

Unfortunately, then only growth area is Gov't work who we all get to pay for.

Why would you say unfortunate? People are working, and bringing home paychecks. Govt has always been the first to employ after the economy takes a dump. I wish obama would have done with FDR did, but put the pressure on private industry which is still taking it's time. Though "green" jobs and manufacturing might be coming back which is great news. I have hope, there's still 2/3rds left of the stimulus to come out. I still have a job and though they just spent billions buying a network, they have been cutting back A LOT! But I doubt CEO pay has been cut. Makes me very mad, very mad. At least I got my promotion and am getting my yearly raise, and a bonus but for a company to make huge profits and to buy a network for billions to whine about the budget is very pathetic. One of the things that really pisses me off is that during the summer and even the start of 09 they hired a bunch of contractors but as of a month or so ago laid almost all of them off. I would be devastated if I just got hired then was told to take a hike. I really hope things start to rebound soon.

kuzi16

phobicsquirrel:

cabinetmaker:

kaspera79:

Also not included in the unemployment rate is the " under-employed ".. Highly skilled People who have exhausted their benifits and have since taken much lower paying jobs just to survive, Such as Doctors who end up driving a taxi , or, people who are on staff as Temp workers but only get called a few times a month.

Unfortunately, then only growth area is Gov't work who we all get to pay for.

Why would you say unfortunate? People are working, and bringing home paychecks. Govt has always been the first to employ after the economy takes a dump. I wish obama would have done with FDR did, but put the pressure on private industry which is still taking it's time.

its unfortunate because no mater how much work the government doles out there is no gain in real wealth. they take money from the private sector and spend it (very ineffectively) again, thus injecting it back to the private sector.... where it already was. this is no gain.

If Obama did what FDR did then we would be stagnate at best.
Link
Link
and
book recommendation

phobicsquirrel:

I have hope, there's still 2/3rds left of the stimulus to come out.

set to be spent during an election year....
nothing fishy there.

the thing about government spending vs. private sector spending is this:
when the government spends money, it tends to spend money in a way that benefits politicians and their chances of getting reelected. it is very inefficiently spent, often wasted.
when the private sector spends money the people spending it have a tendency to spent it on what will get them the most bang for their buck. it will be spent in ways that will help them and others around them generate new wealth and income.

phobicsquirrel:

At least I got my promotion and am getting my yearly raise

quit being greedy.

...or is that just self interest speaking?

phobicsquirrel:

One of the things that really pisses me off is that during the summer and even the start of 09 they hired a bunch of contractors but as of a month or so ago laid almost all of them off. I would be devastated if I just got hired then was told to take a hike. I really hope things start to rebound soon.

what would be even worse is if they went ahead and kept them on even though they couldnt afford to pay them, thus driving your company into the ground, killing all the jobs it has, or could have in the future.

i know cuts suck. but in the long run, if the company wants to stay alive, they need to be made.

historically, when the economy turns sour, companies cut back on employment and costs as much as they can. this is so they dont go under. then, after all those cuts are made, they start to turn a profit again. this usually leads to growth and thus hiring. yes, it sucks in the short term, but these things are on a cycle. they always have been they always will be. no amount of micromanaging the economy by the government is going to change that. the only thing it has ever done in the past was make it harder to do legal, non-rights-infringing business.

phobicsquirrel

kuzi16:

phobicsquirrel:

cabinetmaker:

kaspera79:

Also not included in the unemployment rate is the " under-employed ".. Highly skilled People who have exhausted their benifits and have since taken much lower paying jobs just to survive, Such as Doctors who end up driving a taxi , or, people who are on staff as Temp workers but only get called a few times a month.

Unfortunately, then only growth area is Gov't work who we all get to pay for.

Why would you say unfortunate? People are working, and bringing home paychecks. Govt has always been the first to employ after the economy takes a dump. I wish obama would have done with FDR did, but put the pressure on private industry which is still taking it's time.

its unfortunate because no mater how much work the government doles out there is no gain in real wealth. they take money from the private sector and spend it (very ineffectively) again, thus injecting it back to the private sector.... where it already was. this is no gain.

If Obama did what FDR did then we would be stagnate at best.
Link
Link
and
book recommendation

phobicsquirrel:

I have hope, there's still 2/3rds left of the stimulus to come out.

set to be spent during an election year....
nothing fishy there.

the thing about government spending vs. private sector spending is this:
when the government spends money, it tends to spend money in a way that benefits politicians and their chances of getting reelected. it is very inefficiently spent, often wasted.
when the private sector spends money the people spending it have a tendency to spent it on what will get them the most bang for their buck. it will be spent in ways that will help them and others around them generate new wealth and income.

phobicsquirrel:

At least I got my promotion and am getting my yearly raise

quit being greedy.

...or is that just self interest speaking?

phobicsquirrel:

One of the things that really pisses me off is that during the summer and even the start of 09 they hired a bunch of contractors but as of a month or so ago laid almost all of them off. I would be devastated if I just got hired then was told to take a hike. I really hope things start to rebound soon.

what would be even worse is if they went ahead and kept them on even though they couldnt afford to pay them, thus driving your company into the ground, killing all the jobs it has, or could have in the future.

i know cuts suck. but in the long run, if the company wants to stay alive, they need to be made.

historically, when the economy turns sour, companies cut back on employment and costs as much as they can. this is so they dont go under. then, after all those cuts are made, they start to turn a profit again. this usually leads to growth and thus hiring. yes, it sucks in the short term, but these things are on a cycle. they always have been they always will be. no amount of micromanaging the economy by the government is going to change that. the only thing it has ever done in the past was make it harder to do legal, non-rights-infringing business.

Well I feel fortunate to have my own company and still have a job, I don't think that is greedy. But going to your point of cutting people back if a company can't afford them is BS. If a company worked correctly and was driven by "how to work better" and not greed than having the CEO's or High management forgo say their huge bonus then maybe employees who don't make even close to what just their bonus's are could keep their jobs. Think of how much the billions of dollars that AIG gave out in bonus's was seized and put into new plants for new types of energy, or what-ever other projects to invest in this country. Sure if a company is having to shell out more than it is making then it makes sense to cut corners and to lay people off or whatever else it has to do, but laying people off while keeping the fat cats making milions and huge bonus's, that at least to me is just bad business. Sure at that level good pay should be given but at the expense of your own business is just not how things work.

kuzi16

phobicsquirrel:

Well I feel fortunate to have my own company and still have a job, I don't think that is greedy.

you are fortunate. and you arent greedy. thats kinda my point.

phobicsquirrel:

But going to your point of cutting people back if a company can't afford them is BS. If a company worked correctly and was driven by "how to work better" and not greed than having the CEO's or High management forgo say their huge bonus then maybe employees who don't make even close to what just their bonus's are could keep their jobs.

so if your company starts to fail, will you let go of your salary so others can have their job?

very few people in the world can head a multi billion dollar company. they pay reflects that. why would they work for less if their skills are in such high demand?

phobicsquirrel:

Think of how much the billions of dollars that AIG gave out in bonus's was seized and put into new plants for new types of energy, or what-ever other projects to invest in this country.

one tenth of one percent of the bailout amount received by AIG went to bonus. that would come nowhere near what it would take to fix the job market.

phobicsquirrel:

Sure if a company is having to shell out more than it is making then it makes sense to cut corners and to lay people off or whatever else it has to do, but laying people off while keeping the fat cats making milions and huge bonus's, that at least to me is just bad business.

a 5 million/year salary will pay 100 people a 50k/year job. when you are talking thousands of people at a large company like AIG, GM, etc. those 100 are small potatoes.

phobicsquirrel

The people who handle these huge companies don't know how to run a company, that's why they failed. They know how to make share holders happy. And there are many people who can handle a multi bilion dollar company. AIG bonus's 120 plus million dollars (let's not forget about years prior to 09), well it would certainly help. I know your all about the big business and all so no reason to even argue with you, but if these companies knew a thing about running a business, then they wouldn't have needed 700 plus billion dollars given to them, then go and use that money to continue the same practices. Firing people isn't a solution.

phobicsquirrel

And I might add, sure taking pay cuts suck, but if your making thousands of dollars more than your employees then maybe a small cut would be a good idea. I've had several conversations with local biz owner's who have done just that. Though they aren't million dollar companies, but taking a bit less so another can keep their job is what a lot of caring people would do. Now if the biz was not really able to handle it then an owner needs to do what is best but there needs to be some effort.

kuzi16

phobicsquirrel:

The people who handle these huge companies don't know how to run a company, that's why they failed.

then we should have let the business fail. again, another example of the government stepping in when it shouldnt.

phobicsquirrel:

They know how to make share holders happy.

they do that by turning a profit.

phobicsquirrel:

And there are many people who can handle a multi bilion dollar company.

and they deserve every bonus they get.

phobicsquirrel:

AIG bonus's 120 plus million dollars (let's not forget about years prior to 09), well it would certainly help. I know your all about the big business and all so no reason to even argue with you, but if these companies knew a thing about running a business, then they wouldn't have needed 700 plus billion dollars given to them, then go and use that money to continue the same practices. Firing people isn't a solution.

they should have failed. the company shouldnt even exist. now that AIG has paid back their bailout, it is none of the governments business what they do.


you are right on another thing
provided that a company does not infringe on the rights of individuals i am all about big business. they provide jobs to millions nation, and world wide. they produce products that millions, if not billions want to use, and they do it efficiently while creating wealth.

Vulchor

Well stated Squirrel. Its a very real thing, and we must come to grips than things like "business ethics", whiile joked about for years are truly now an oxymoron. We should all get together for cigars and watch the movie Wall Street. Personal gain and responsibilty are of the day, fellowship and care for your fellow man has died. Except for evangelical churches, but I think the "god wants you to be rich" idea is even prevalent amongst those cults as well.

Krieg

Vulchor:

Well stated Squirrel. Its a very real thing, and we must come to grips than things like "business ethics", whiile joked about for years are truly now an oxymoron. We should all get together for cigars and watch the movie Wall Street. Personal gain and responsibilty are of the day, fellowship and care for your fellow man has died. Except for evangelical churches, but I think the "god wants you to be rich" idea is even prevalent amongst those cults as well.

So are you saying being rich is a bad thing? Not quite sure what you mean here. I said it once, and I'll say it again, I never got a job from a poor person.

Krieg

Small businessmen - the people we will depend on for bring the unemployed back to work - are cowering in their offices waiting to see just what The Community Organizer and his Democrat-Socialist followers are going to do to them. Will it be more taxes? That's almost a certainty. But there's so much more on the table. We have the penalties for businesses who don't provide health insurance; the looming threat of Cap and Tax; expansion of eligibility for onerous laws like the Family Leave Act and the Americans with Disabilities Act. There is absolutely no reason for these small businessmen to stick their necks out. None.

Obama and the Democrats know this .. they're not stupid. The problem is that the very idea of lowering taxes or abandoning future tax increases goes against every fiber of their political being. They just have to find another way .. and that seems to be even more spending. That's right ... we're not spending ENOUGH money we don't have. So .. up next ... another $28 billion to spend on infrastructure projects.

Wait! Now Obama has a new problem! There's a study out there which says that stimulus spending on infrastructure has had no effect on local unemployment. It has also had little effect on the construction industry, which has already seen a $75 billion stimulus. The bottom line: Since the stimulus bill was passed almost a year ago, there has been no connection between stimulus money spent and the number of construction workers hired or fired. If you compare counties that received the most stimulus money per capita for road construction, and those that didn't receive any money ... there is no, I repeat, no difference in unemployment trends between the counties.

We'll wait for The ACORN Administration's spin on that one.

jsnake

Krieg:

Small businessmen - the people we will depend on for bring the unemployed back to work - are cowering in their offices waiting to see just what The Community Organizer and his Democrat-Socialist followers are going to do to them. Will it be more taxes? That's almost a certainty. But there's so much more on the table. We have the penalties for businesses who don't provide health insurance; the looming threat of Cap and Tax; expansion of eligibility for onerous laws like the Family Leave Act and the Americans with Disabilities Act. There is absolutely no reason for these small businessmen to stick their necks out. None.

Obama and the Democrats know this .. they're not stupid. The problem is that the very idea of lowering taxes or abandoning future tax increases goes against every fiber of their political being. They just have to find another way .. and that seems to be even more spending. That's right ... we're not spending ENOUGH money we don't have. So .. up next ... another $28 billion to spend on infrastructure projects.

Wait! Now Obama has a new problem! There's a study out there which says that stimulus spending on infrastructure has had no effect on local unemployment. It has also had little effect on the construction industry, which has already seen a $75 billion stimulus. The bottom line: Since the stimulus bill was passed almost a year ago, there has been no connection between stimulus money spent and the number of construction workers hired or fired. If you compare counties that received the most stimulus money per capita for road construction, and those that didn't receive any money ... there is no, I repeat, no difference in unemployment trends between the counties.

We'll wait for The ACORN Administration's spin on that one.

Has anyone told you that you are an intelligent man? Just saying! Around here they put up those signs in construction areas announcing stimulus dollars at works. The cost of each sign was between $5,000 to $10,000. What a waste. Still waiting for someone to explain where all the money is, who is being helped, where are the jobs, etc.

Krieg

jsnake:

Krieg:

Small businessmen - the people we will depend on for bring the unemployed back to work - are cowering in their offices waiting to see just what The Community Organizer and his Democrat-Socialist followers are going to do to them. Will it be more taxes? That's almost a certainty. But there's so much more on the table. We have the penalties for businesses who don't provide health insurance; the looming threat of Cap and Tax; expansion of eligibility for onerous laws like the Family Leave Act and the Americans with Disabilities Act. There is absolutely no reason for these small businessmen to stick their necks out. None.

Obama and the Democrats know this .. they're not stupid. The problem is that the very idea of lowering taxes or abandoning future tax increases goes against every fiber of their political being. They just have to find another way .. and that seems to be even more spending. That's right ... we're not spending ENOUGH money we don't have. So .. up next ... another $28 billion to spend on infrastructure projects.

Wait! Now Obama has a new problem! There's a study out there which says that stimulus spending on infrastructure has had no effect on local unemployment. It has also had little effect on the construction industry, which has already seen a $75 billion stimulus. The bottom line: Since the stimulus bill was passed almost a year ago, there has been no connection between stimulus money spent and the number of construction workers hired or fired. If you compare counties that received the most stimulus money per capita for road construction, and those that didn't receive any money ... there is no, I repeat, no difference in unemployment trends between the counties.

We'll wait for The ACORN Administration's spin on that one.

Has anyone told you that you are an intelligent man? Just saying! Around here they put up those signs in construction areas announcing stimulus dollars at works. The cost of each sign was between $5,000 to $10,000. What a waste. Still waiting for someone to explain where all the money is, who is being helped, where are the jobs, etc.

lol, I'm sure my wife would beg to differ with you..lol (even though I'm always right, it's just easier to let her think she is) I have seen those stupid signs too. I have really contemplated driving by one night and spray painting "This sign cost X amount, how's the stimulus working for you?".

cabinetmaker

jsnake:

Krieg:

Small businessmen - the people we will depend on for bring the unemployed back to work - are cowering in their offices waiting to see just what The Community Organizer and his Democrat-Socialist followers are going to do to them. Will it be more taxes? That's almost a certainty. But there's so much more on the table. We have the penalties for businesses who don't provide health insurance; the looming threat of Cap and Tax; expansion of eligibility for onerous laws like the Family Leave Act and the Americans with Disabilities Act. There is absolutely no reason for these small businessmen to stick their necks out. None.

Obama and the Democrats know this .. they're not stupid. The problem is that the very idea of lowering taxes or abandoning future tax increases goes against every fiber of their political being. They just have to find another way .. and that seems to be even more spending. That's right ... we're not spending ENOUGH money we don't have. So .. up next ... another $28 billion to spend on infrastructure projects.

Wait! Now Obama has a new problem! There's a study out there which says that stimulus spending on infrastructure has had no effect on local unemployment. It has also had little effect on the construction industry, which has already seen a $75 billion stimulus. The bottom line: Since the stimulus bill was passed almost a year ago, there has been no connection between stimulus money spent and the number of construction workers hired or fired. If you compare counties that received the most stimulus money per capita for road construction, and those that didn't receive any money ... there is no, I repeat, no difference in unemployment trends between the counties.

We'll wait for The ACORN Administration's spin on that one.

Has anyone told you that you are an intelligent man? Just saying! Around here they put up those signs in construction areas announcing stimulus dollars at works. The cost of each sign was between $5,000 to $10,000. What a waste. Still waiting for some one to explain where all the money is, who is being helped, where are the jobs, etc.

I'm not sure, but I think those signs are printed/made by prisoners.... Our tax dollars are hard at work making sure violent criminals are employed and productive...

stephen_hannibal

Can't believe Cabi just tossed Prisoners into the mix.
But this raises my next question.
Prisoners an untapped resource, or a burden to society?

cabinetmaker

stephen_hannibal:

Can't believe Cabi just tossed Prisoners into the mix.
But this raises my next question.
Prisoners an untapped resource, or a burden to society?

I say make them earn their keep.