all i notice is that more and more things are putting their hands out to the government for more and more money. i dont remember where, but i even heard that there may be a bailout for the medical field soon too. health care costs are not effected as much by market demands and since people have less money they cant pay and hospitals are losing out more and more.
so we now have a financial system being held up by government, a bail out for the auto industry being debated, rumors of a health care bailout, talks of a government 401k buyout, a president-elect that has made statements about spreading the wealth around, a congress that has made statements about nationalizing the US oil industry, and a social/economic climate that is dangerous and scary to millions.
I have a hard time seeing that we are NOT heading down a socialist path.
when will the bailouts end? why are we bailing out the financial system? we should take our knocks now and only help the people who have issues stemming from this... not causing it.
kuzi, I agree with you. I think it will just continue, it needs to stop. I'm all for letting these companies fail, as there are many other small organizations that have new tech which is being hindered by these larger companies that are doing the same old thing.
Just an observation/musing -- executive bonuses(any industry),salary again any industry, professional atheletes (any sport) . Is there really any ONE person worth 80,90,100,120 million dollars a year. I know the revenue argument about what they generate for their team,city etc. But really, unless you could lay your hands on someone and cure say cancer or aids or insert your own worst imaginable disease here , is any one human being worth that much money in one year. Please only members making less than 100,000,000.00 a year should respond to this question as any making more than that I am sure is biased as hell !!!
One reason it will be an ongoing process to "fix" the economy and one of the main problems with american socio-economics is on full display in the following video. Enjoy, but you must watch all the way thru as the last 30 seconds tell the real story. Not that long so won't be hard to watch. Very interesting.
Here's a really, really interesting article about how the workings of Wall Street led to this situation, by the guy who wrote Moneyball. He was a stock broker in an earlier career.
read lewis' book years ago. (liars poker) wall street deserves their fair share of credit/blame however there were plenty of idiots on BOTH sides of that table.
Ok, I'm going to keep this short but there has been something eating at me for days now while watching the news. Why is it when Hamas launches rockets into Isreal and sends in homocide bombers into crowded markets and cafes, is it considered to be no big deal, but when Isreal gets fed up and strikes back to protect their people they are considered the bad guy???
I've watched protesters on the news talk about how Isreal is the terrorist group and that action should be taken against them and it really pisses me off. I don't understand how anyone can see this so one sided.
Lets just put this into perspective, say you have a neighbor that keeps throwing rocks and bricks through your window everyday and the police (aka the UN) won't do anything to stop them or punish them, don't you think you would get sick of it and eventualy take matters into your own hands???
not only that but the day the treaty ends Hamas starts lobbing rockets into Israel. They are the ones that broke the cease-fire. they had it coming to them.
If the enemies of Israel lay down their arms there would be peace. If Israel lay down their arms there would be no Israel.
I've watched protesters on the news talk about how Isreal is the terrorist group and that action should be taken against them and it really pisses me off. I don't understand how anyone can see this so one sided.
I believe that perception to mainly be a product of corrupt, biased special interest owned media. I dont even watch the news anymore, if it's important i'll read about it on the message traffic at work, and ive been hearing abot israel for a few weeks. We have 2 carriers in that region and one 24 hours away, but within immediate striking distance with tanker support. What has ME concerned is good ol' W went public saying that the hamas rocket chucking is "an act of terror" I agree with that, in context, but everytime it seems W gets a new "act of terror" target, we get involved.
Israel is a fine line. Protect them and it shows the rest or the radical muslim world you've chosen sides and now were free game(not like 9/11 didnt prove that). Dont protect Israel to the point that they collapse, and every radical movement over there that believes Israel is "their" holy land.....aaaaand that narrows it down to all of them, will have a free for all and there will be jihad the likes of which the world has never seen. All in all i agree with what israel is doing. Hamas broke the cease fire, started slinging rockets....a LOT of them and Israel conducts a bombing campaign specifically targeting hamas's leaders, members, training, supply and management areas. They move troops and armor to the border, not invading, just to the border. Yes there has been civilian collateral damages....welcome to war, sucks doesnt it? But the media loves to focus on that!! "A high school exploded today when a Israeli dropped bomb went off target and exploded, missing it's intended target". Now israel is the bad guy....blame the pilot? The Plane? The bomb? The wonderful thing is that Israel's society....pay attention here....accepts that as part of war. It accepts that there will be collateral damage, most often civilian. Where are the Israelis protesters to stop the war??? Yeah didnt think so. If our society had a stronger stomcach and a few other words which will be auto-edited, we wouldnt be in the situation were in now with Iraq/Afghanistan, anyone getting vietnam flashbacks yet....Ok, Jet's flame is off
I've watched protesters on the news talk about how Isreal is the terrorist group and that action should be taken against them and it really pisses me off. I don't understand how anyone can see this so one sided.
I believe that perception to mainly be a product of corrupt, biased special interest owned media. I dont even watch the news anymore, if it's important i'll read about it on the message traffic at work, and ive been hearing abot israel for a few weeks. We have 2 carriers in that region and one 24 hours away, but within immediate striking distance with tanker support. What has ME concerned is good ol' W went public saying that the hamas rocket chucking is "an act of terror" I agree with that, in context, but everytime it seems W gets a new "act of terror" target, we get involved.
Israel is a fine line. Protect them and it shows the rest or the radical muslim world you've chosen sides and now were free game(not like 9/11 didnt prove that). Dont protect Israel to the point that they collapse, and every radical movement over there that believes Israel is "their" holy land.....aaaaand that narrows it down to all of them, will have a free for all and there will be jihad the likes of which the world has never seen. All in all i agree with what israel is doing. Hamas broke the cease fire, started slinging rockets....a LOT of them and Israel conducts a bombing campaign specifically targeting hamas's leaders, members, training, supply and management areas. They move troops and armor to the border, not invading, just to the border. Yes there has been civilian collateral damages....welcome to war, sucks doesnt it? But the media loves to focus on that!! "A high school exploded today when a Israeli dropped bomb went off target and exploded, missing it's intended target". Now israel is the bad guy....blame the pilot? The Plane? The bomb? The wonderful thing is that Israel's society....pay attention here....accepts that as part of war. It accepts that there will be collateral damage, most often civilian. Where are the Israelis protesters to stop the war??? Yeah didnt think so. If our society had a stronger stomcach and a few other words which will be auto-edited, we wouldnt be in the situation were in now with Iraq/Afghanistan, anyone getting vietnam flashbacks yet....Ok, Jet's flame is off
My opinion is that I don't see a problem with "Good ol' W" saying it is an act of terror and supporting Isreal. By god they need someone on their side. They have consistantly throughout history been the MOST persecuted group on this plant. I personally would give a *** if the Muslim world knew we were picking sides. What do expect when the people Isreal is fighting are the same people who flew planes into 3 of our buildings and killed thousands of people... If they don't like it then they can just get f***ed for all I care.
Ok, I'm going to keep this short but there has been something eating at me for days now while watching the news. Why is it when Hamas launches rockets into Isreal and sends in homocide bombers into crowded markets and cafes, is it considered to be no big deal, but when Isreal gets fed up and strikes back to protect their people they are considered the bad guy???
I've watched protesters on the news talk about how Isreal is the terrorist group and that action should be taken against them and it really pisses me off. I don't understand how anyone can see this so one sided.
Lets just put this into perspective, say you have a neighbor that keeps throwing rocks and bricks through your window everyday and the police (aka the UN) won't do anything to stop them or punish them, don't you think you would get sick of it and eventualy take matters into your own hands???
kuzi16:
not only that but the day the treaty ends Hamas starts lobbing rockets into Israel. They are the ones that broke the cease-fire. they had it coming to them.
If the enemies of Israel lay down their arms there would be peace. If Israel lay down their arms there would be no Israel.
Interesting, many people feel this all started with an illegal occupation of Palestinian territory. Which preceeds the first missle from the Gaza strip. Revisionist history has always been an affliction of the "winning side".
Well Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California were all once part of Mexico, but you don't see them blowing *** up over here do you?
Puro I am sure you are making a point here, but I'm just not getting it bud. Could you try again, cause I can't find a connection between your examples and the Gaza strip. Like I say, I am sure you are making a point but I'm missing it.
My apologies for the "good ol W" coment. I enjoy spirited intelligent debate and that probably degraded it a notch, i apologize.
The PLO, Islamic Jihad and Hamas have all been vying for Israel for a long time. I'm pretty sure Al-Qaeda is in the mix but they're main mission is to wage war against zionism and secular society, not so much reclaim the holy land. I agree with Bush calling it an act of terror, all in all it is. I believe our support at the moment is right where it needs to be, giving Israel weapons and material support....and yes, some if not most of the the bombs they're dropping were made in America. I read just a few moments ago that the ground campaign has begun with Israeli tanks and troops moving into Gaza. Israel has a right to defend itself. But they will run into the same problem we are having, no clear cut enemy. Your targets are only as good as you intel. The global outcry for a cease fire is more than well intentioned, the security of the world depends on the security of Israel. A lot of people dont realize how many things are hinged to Israel. I have a vested interest in the situation because i'll be there in 6 months.
I'm saying there is no excuse for their tactics. They aren't attacking troops in the Gaza strip, they are attacking cafe's and markets in Isreal killing hundreds of people who have absolutely nothing to do with any kind of occupation.
My apologies for the "good ol W" coment. I enjoy spirited intelligent debate and that probably degraded it a notch, i apologize.
The PLO, Islamic Jihad and Hamas have all been vying for Israel for a long time. I'm pretty sure Al-Qaeda is in the mix but they're main mission is to wage war against zionism and secular society, not so much reclaim the holy land. I agree with Bush calling it an act of terror, all in all it is. I believe our support at the moment is right where it needs to be, giving Israel weapons and material support....and yes, some if not most of the the bombs they're dropping were made in America. I read just a few moments ago that the ground campaign has begun with Israeli tanks and troops moving into Gaza. Israel has a right to defend itself. But they will run into the same problem we are having, no clear cut enemy. Your targets are only as good as you intel. The global outcry for a cease fire is more than well intentioned, the security of the world depends on the security of Israel. A lot of people dont realize how many things are hinged to Israel. I have a vested interest in the situation because i'll be there in 6 months.
I agree with you, but my problem with the outcry is if the same things were happening to these people in their home country, they would do the same thing. If they can break the infastructure of Hamas and truely deal a hard blow to their entire oragazation then they will make Isreal a safer place.
Ok, I'm going to keep this short but there has been something eating at me for days now while watching the news. Why is it when Hamas launches rockets into Isreal and sends in homocide bombers into crowded markets and cafes, is it considered to be no big deal, but when Isreal gets fed up and strikes back to protect their people they are considered the bad guy???
I've watched protesters on the news talk about how Isreal is the terrorist group and that action should be taken against them and it really pisses me off. I don't understand how anyone can see this so one sided.
Lets just put this into perspective, say you have a neighbor that keeps throwing rocks and bricks through your window everyday and the police (aka the UN) won't do anything to stop them or punish them, don't you think you would get sick of it and eventualy take matters into your own hands???
kuzi16:
not only that but the day the treaty ends Hamas starts lobbing rockets into Israel. They are the ones that broke the cease-fire. they had it coming to them.
If the enemies of Israel lay down their arms there would be peace. If Israel lay down their arms there would be no Israel.
Interesting, many people feel this all started with an illegal occupation of Palestinian territory. Which preceeds the first missle from the Gaza strip. Revisionist history has always been an affliction of the "winning side".
those people that think it started then have no clue about history. it seems to me that the jewish people have been cast out of their land thousands of years before the US and most of europe as we know it even existed. that preceeds the "illegal occupation of Palistinian territory" by thousands of years.
those people that think it started then have no clue about history. it seems to me that the jewish people have been cast out of their land thousands of years before the US and most of europe as we know it even existed. that preceeds the "illegal occupation of Palistinian territory" by thousands of years.
Revisionist history? not so much.
OTOH, of course, it only became the Israeli homeland, thousands of years ago, because they took it away from the peoples then known as Canaanites. This is the problem with arguments from who owned what first. There's no end to them -- they just keep going back and back and back. In this case, they serve neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis well.
ISTM what's relevant is what people are doing now. It looks to me like Hamas is doing what's best for Hamas -- not for the Palestinians. Israel, meanwhile, is . . . also doing what's best for Hamas. Not just with these bombings, either. With their blockade that prevents humanitarian aid from getting to the Palestinians, and with their continued expansion of settlements on Palestinian land. It's all driven by short-sighted domestic Israeli politics, not by Israel's long-term strategic interests. All of it strengthens Hamas. It's foolish.
Just as an aside, there's a certain historical irony to the notion that the Palestinians are the Bad Guys because they're using terrorism, and Israel is the Good Guy because it doesn't. That neatly elides the fact that in the early years after WWII, when what was then still known as Palestine was a British protectorate, Jewish terrorists attacked the British with regularity to try to drive them out so they could establish Israel.
Truth be told, every nation on Earth has used terrorism when it needed to, us included. And will again, if it feels the need.
That's not a defense of terrorism, or of those using it right now. It's just a fact. One that, ISTM, ought to give us pause before we start categorizing peoples as evil. If terrorism makes a people evil, we're all evil. Including us. Including Israel. It all just masks the real question: whose terrorism is in the service of policies, ideas, or peoples we wish to support, and whose terrorism isn't. That's all we're really talking about. That's the realpolitik of the situation.
those people that think it started then have no clue about history. it seems to me that the jewish people have been cast out of their land thousands of years before the US and most of europe as we know it even existed. that preceeds the "illegal occupation of Palistinian territory" by thousands of years.
Revisionist history? not so much.
OTOH, of course, it only became the Israeli homeland, thousands of years ago, because they took it away from the peoples then known as Canaanites. This is the problem with arguments from who owned what first. There's no end to them -- they just keep going back and back and back. In this case, they serve neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis well.
ISTM what's relevant is what people are doing now. It looks to me like Hamas is doing what's best for Hamas -- not for the Palestinians. Israel, meanwhile, is . . . also doing what's best for Hamas. Not just with these bombings, either. With their blockade that prevents humanitarian aid from getting to the Palestinians, and with their continued expansion of settlements on Palestinian land. It's all driven by short-sighted domestic Israeli politics, not by Israel's long-term strategic interests. All of it strengthens Hamas. It's foolish.
Just as an aside, there's a certain historical irony to the notion that the Palestinians are the Bad Guys because they're using terrorism, and Israel is the Good Guy because it doesn't. That neatly elides the fact that in the early years after WWII, when what was then still known as Palestine was a British protectorate, Jewish terrorists attacked the British with regularity to try to drive them out so they could establish Israel.
Truth be told, every nation on Earth has used terrorism when it needed to, us included. And will again, if it feels the need.
That's not a defense of terrorism, or of those using it right now. It's just a fact. One that, ISTM, ought to give us pause before we start categorizing peoples as evil. If terrorism makes a people evil, we're all evil. Including us. Including Israel. It all just masks the real question: whose terrorism is in the service of policies, ideas, or peoples we wish to support, and whose terrorism isn't. That's all we're really talking about. That's the realpolitik of the situation.
I disagree in the fact that the Jewish terrorists were driving British soldiers out of Palestine, not blowing up civilians just to cause terror and panic... that is what makes Hamas terrorists and "evil" in my eyes. Hamas doesn't want to fight Israel's militarty, they want to hurt the civilians, women, and children. Make them live in fear everyday. This will not do anything to end the war, this will just add fuel to the fire until Israel really blows theirs top and wipes out the entire Gaza strip... At least Israel is targeting Hamas leadership and military targets. Doesn't make the civiilian casualties any less sad, but I understand their mentality.
I disagree in the fact that the Jewish terrorists were driving British soldiers out of Palestine, not blowing up civilians just to cause terror and panic...
I would bet that if the Palestinians were polled, they'd say exactly the same thing: Hamas is trying to drive Israeli soldiers out of Palestine, not just cause terror and panic. Also, Menachem Begin didn't see as much difference between the two groups of terrorists as you do. He said those early Jewish terrorists were the model for later Arab and Palestinian terrorists. And he should know, since he was one of those early Jewish terrorists.
PuroFreak:
Hamas doesn't want to fight Israel's militarty, they want to hurt the civilians, women, and children.
Well of course they don't want to fight Israel's military. They can't beat Israel's military. Just like Irgun and Haganah couldn't beat the British military. True, those groups didn't go after women and children, and that's important, but it's not true that they just went after the military. They went after the civilian British leadership in Palestine. It's also true that they didn't mind causing civilian deaths, wholly unrelated to the British. Blowing up the King David Hotel killed a lot of non-British civilians.
Just so it's clear, I'm not defending Hamas. I'm just saying Israel's hands are also far from clean, and the way they've handled their dealings with the Palestinians over the past 20 years (including the present) is foolish, incredibly short-sighted, and often unjust (not to mention illegal).
It makes a huge difference in where your information comes from, and your predisposition to believe the sources of that information. There are a lot of good people here and I don't want to enter into a tit for tat and offend anybody's "personal truths" over this situation. It will change nobody's position and will only serve to justify the whole ugly affair.
I disagree in the fact that the Jewish terrorists were driving British soldiers out of Palestine, not blowing up civilians just to cause terror and panic...
I would bet that if the Palestinians were polled, they'd say exactly the same thing: Hamas is trying to drive Israeli soldiers out of Palestine, not just cause terror and panic. Also, Menachem Begin didn't see as much difference between the two groups of terrorists as you do. He said those early Jewish terrorists were the model for later Arab and Palestinian terrorists. And he should know, since he was one of those early Jewish terrorists.
PuroFreak:
Hamas doesn't want to fight Israel's militarty, they want to hurt the civilians, women, and children.
Well of course they don't want to fight Israel's military. They can't beat Israel's military. Just like Irgun and Haganah couldn't beat the British military. True, those groups didn't go after women and children, and that's important, but it's not true that they just went after the military. They went after the civilian British leadership in Palestine. It's also true that they didn't mind causing civilian deaths, wholly unrelated to the British. Blowing up the King David Hotel killed a lot of non-British civilians.
Just so it's clear, I'm not defending Hamas. I'm just saying Israel's hands are also far from clean, and the way they've handled their dealings with the Palestinians over the past 20 years (including the present) is foolish, incredibly short-sighted, and often unjust (not to mention illegal).
Ok, so by that line of thinking, the things that were done YEARS AND YEARS ago make what Hamas is doing today ok... My point is that comparing the Jewish military of TODAY vs. the Hamas militants of TODAY, Israel has every right to defend themselves by bombing and invading the Gaza Strip. I think it's a just fight to end the terrorist attacks on innocent civilians.
Ok, so by that line of thinking, the things that were done YEARS AND YEARS ago make what Hamas is doing today ok...
That's pretty obtuse, Puro. I explicitly said I did not defend what Hamas is doing, nor does my "line of thinking" justify it. I'm not defending Hamas; I'm pointing out that Israel isn't innocent, either.
My personal opinion, not that it matters, is that BOTH sides are behaving stupidly and illegally, and they pretty much deserve each other. I'd love to see them come to peace, but I don't think the U.S. or anybody else can broker such a peace until both sides want peace. And right now NEITHER side wants peace. Continued low-grade war serves the political interests of leaders on both sides. The main reason I want to see us get off of oil is so we no longer have any strategic interest whatsoever in that region, and can tell them all to go *** themselves. Israel included. When they WANT peace, let us know, and we'll be happy to help. Until then, their problems are just that: their problems.
As for the notion that "things that were done YEARS AND YEARS ago" makes things done today okay, weren't you cheering kuzi's argument for the relevance of the world's history of Antisemitism, just a couple of hours ago? (Just for the record, I think it's relevant, too. But you can't cherry-pick history. If the world's long history of antisemitism is relevant, so is Israel's history of bad behavior toward the Palestinians over the past 20 years.)
PuroFreak:
I think it's a just fight to end the terrorist attacks on innocent civilians.
I don't mean this as a personal remark, Puro. You're a bright guy. But that statement strikes me as very naive.
Comments
so we now have a financial system being held up by government, a bail out for the auto industry being debated, rumors of a health care bailout, talks of a government 401k buyout, a president-elect that has made statements about spreading the wealth around, a congress that has made statements about nationalizing the US oil industry, and a social/economic climate that is dangerous and scary to millions.
I have a hard time seeing that we are NOT heading down a socialist path.
when will the bailouts end? why are we bailing out the financial system? we should take our knocks now and only help the people who have issues stemming from this... not causing it.
But of course that's Canadian
One reason it will be an ongoing process to "fix" the economy and one of the main problems with american socio-economics is on full display in the following video. Enjoy, but you must watch all the way thru as the last 30 seconds tell the real story. Not that long so won't be hard to watch. Very interesting.
http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189
I've watched protesters on the news talk about how Isreal is the terrorist group and that action should be taken against them and it really pisses me off. I don't understand how anyone can see this so one sided.
Lets just put this into perspective, say you have a neighbor that keeps throwing rocks and bricks through your window everyday and the police (aka the UN) won't do anything to stop them or punish them, don't you think you would get sick of it and eventualy take matters into your own hands???
If the enemies of Israel lay down their arms there would be peace. If Israel lay down their arms there would be no Israel.
I believe that perception to mainly be a product of corrupt, biased special interest owned media. I dont even watch the news anymore, if it's important i'll read about it on the message traffic at work, and ive been hearing abot israel for a few weeks. We have 2 carriers in that region and one 24 hours away, but within immediate striking distance with tanker support. What has ME concerned is good ol' W went public saying that the hamas rocket chucking is "an act of terror" I agree with that, in context, but everytime it seems W gets a new "act of terror" target, we get involved.
Israel is a fine line. Protect them and it shows the rest or the radical muslim world you've chosen sides and now were free game(not like 9/11 didnt prove that). Dont protect Israel to the point that they collapse, and every radical movement over there that believes Israel is "their" holy land.....aaaaand that narrows it down to all of them, will have a free for all and there will be jihad the likes of which the world has never seen. All in all i agree with what israel is doing. Hamas broke the cease fire, started slinging rockets....a LOT of them and Israel conducts a bombing campaign specifically targeting hamas's leaders, members, training, supply and management areas. They move troops and armor to the border, not invading, just to the border. Yes there has been civilian collateral damages....welcome to war, sucks doesnt it? But the media loves to focus on that!! "A high school exploded today when a Israeli dropped bomb went off target and exploded, missing it's intended target". Now israel is the bad guy....blame the pilot? The Plane? The bomb? The wonderful thing is that Israel's society....pay attention here....accepts that as part of war. It accepts that there will be collateral damage, most often civilian. Where are the Israelis protesters to stop the war??? Yeah didnt think so. If our society had a stronger stomcach and a few other words which will be auto-edited, we wouldnt be in the situation were in now with Iraq/Afghanistan, anyone getting vietnam flashbacks yet....Ok, Jet's flame is off
I agree with everything in the above post Jet
Interesting, many people feel this all started with an illegal occupation of Palestinian territory. Which preceeds the first missle from the Gaza strip. Revisionist history has always been an affliction of the "winning side".
Puro I am sure you are making a point here, but I'm just not getting it bud. Could you try again, cause I can't find a connection between your examples and the Gaza strip.
Like I say, I am sure you are making a point but I'm missing it.
The PLO, Islamic Jihad and Hamas have all been vying for Israel for a long time. I'm pretty sure Al-Qaeda is in the mix but they're main mission is to wage war against zionism and secular society, not so much reclaim the holy land. I agree with Bush calling it an act of terror, all in all it is. I believe our support at the moment is right where it needs to be, giving Israel weapons and material support....and yes, some if not most of the the bombs they're dropping were made in America. I read just a few moments ago that the ground campaign has begun with Israeli tanks and troops moving into Gaza. Israel has a right to defend itself. But they will run into the same problem we are having, no clear cut enemy. Your targets are only as good as you intel. The global outcry for a cease fire is more than well intentioned, the security of the world depends on the security of Israel. A lot of people dont realize how many things are hinged to Israel. I have a vested interest in the situation because i'll be there in 6 months.
Revisionist history? not so much.
ISTM what's relevant is what people are doing now. It looks to me like Hamas is doing what's best for Hamas -- not for the Palestinians. Israel, meanwhile, is . . . also doing what's best for Hamas. Not just with these bombings, either. With their blockade that prevents humanitarian aid from getting to the Palestinians, and with their continued expansion of settlements on Palestinian land. It's all driven by short-sighted domestic Israeli politics, not by Israel's long-term strategic interests. All of it strengthens Hamas. It's foolish.
Just as an aside, there's a certain historical irony to the notion that the Palestinians are the Bad Guys because they're using terrorism, and Israel is the Good Guy because it doesn't. That neatly elides the fact that in the early years after WWII, when what was then still known as Palestine was a British protectorate, Jewish terrorists attacked the British with regularity to try to drive them out so they could establish Israel.
Truth be told, every nation on Earth has used terrorism when it needed to, us included. And will again, if it feels the need.
That's not a defense of terrorism, or of those using it right now. It's just a fact. One that, ISTM, ought to give us pause before we start categorizing peoples as evil. If terrorism makes a people evil, we're all evil. Including us. Including Israel. It all just masks the real question: whose terrorism is in the service of policies, ideas, or peoples we wish to support, and whose terrorism isn't. That's all we're really talking about. That's the realpolitik of the situation.
Just so it's clear, I'm not defending Hamas. I'm just saying Israel's hands are also far from clean, and the way they've handled their dealings with the Palestinians over the past 20 years (including the present) is foolish, incredibly short-sighted, and often unjust (not to mention illegal).
There are a lot of good people here and I don't want to enter into a tit for tat and offend anybody's "personal truths" over this situation. It will change nobody's position and will only serve to justify the whole ugly affair.
My personal opinion, not that it matters, is that BOTH sides are behaving stupidly and illegally, and they pretty much deserve each other. I'd love to see them come to peace, but I don't think the U.S. or anybody else can broker such a peace until both sides want peace. And right now NEITHER side wants peace. Continued low-grade war serves the political interests of leaders on both sides. The main reason I want to see us get off of oil is so we no longer have any strategic interest whatsoever in that region, and can tell them all to go *** themselves. Israel included. When they WANT peace, let us know, and we'll be happy to help. Until then, their problems are just that: their problems.
As for the notion that "things that were done YEARS AND YEARS ago" makes things done today okay, weren't you cheering kuzi's argument for the relevance of the world's history of Antisemitism, just a couple of hours ago? (Just for the record, I think it's relevant, too. But you can't cherry-pick history. If the world's long history of antisemitism is relevant, so is Israel's history of bad behavior toward the Palestinians over the past 20 years.) I don't mean this as a personal remark, Puro. You're a bright guy. But that statement strikes me as very naive.