My issue with this story isn't so much the Republican VS Democrat thing, because I really don't care, but if this whole thing was to create jobs, then why wasn't the money spent in the areas with higher unemployment? And why was it mostly spent in higher income areas?
Although I cannot say definitively, as I have not done all the research, I would make the initial observation that part of this may be due to the many republicans known for taking a "stance" on non accepting any "hand out money" like this as the reason. I think the real stpry here may be the closed minded politicans not willing to accept money desparetly needed for the people they serve. Or perhaps the unfortunate and oft-uneducated people in these districts who think a vote for a Republican is a vote for god and freedom and a vote for a democrat is a vote for killing babies and helping negroes.
wow.... there are uneducated voters on both sides there buddy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53C2-b8BOLs&feature=related there are people out there that think that all republicans are evil and if you vote for them you are voting for big rich white guys who wanna hold you down but if you vote for a democrat your voting peace and love and a good time for everyone. the reality of the matter is, neither negative stereotype (for either party) is totally what is claimed. there may be some elements that make them seem true to those who claim them, but they dont hold much water.
and why do you have to bring RACE into it? this is the second time you bring race into an argument where it was previously unmentioned. are you calling people here racist? if so, do it. if not leave the race talk out of it. you do not know what is in other peoples hearts. dont pretend to.
if this whole thing was to create jobs, then why wasn't the money spent in the areas with higher unemployment? And why was it mostly spent in higher income areas?
Although I cannot say definitively, as I have not done all the research, I would make the initial observation that part of this may be due to the many republicans known for taking a "stance" on non accepting any "hand out money" like this as the reason. I think the real stpry here may be the closed minded politicans not willing to accept money desparetly needed for the people they serve.
it is not the job of a government to give money to the people. it is the job of a government to give them an environment where their rights are not being violated by anyone so the people can go out and create wealth on thier own. governments cannot create wealth. they can tax it and redistribute it but they cannot create it.
these "closed minded" politicians are saying "no" to socialism. they are saying "no" to violating the rights of the individual. they are saying "no" to the entitlement mentality that this country has. the mentality that everyone owes them something.
Again Kuzi---I am not calling you are anyone specifically racist. I do understand your need to be the center of attention and feel your stance is always the enlightened and correct one----but this was not talking about you, and suprisingly to you I am sure...not all posts are about you. Dont even get me started on the politicians you are defending and violating the rights of the indivdual. You as someone who claims to believe indivdual rights trump all other things should d@mn well know it is the job of govt. to take away your rights. Thats for Repubs and Dems. We are born free and politicians and govt. and laws simply limit what rights we have. To say that this tax idea is any different violation of rights than tapping into a citizens phone line without warrant is absurd. Dont even say the two are not the same and I am deflecting here, because that is simply a cop out for not having to defend any points which you cannot. And again back to my original point, I didnt call any specific person a racist....I am referring to the millions of bumpkins who blindly follow the republicans for uninformed and moral views instead of knowing sh!t about the facts.....if you can asy that is not what many voters are like then you obviously live in more of a box than I thought.
Again Kuzi---I am not calling you are anyone specifically racist. I do understand your need to be the center of attention and feel your stance is always the enlightened and correct one----but this was not talking about you, and suprisingly to you I am sure...not all posts are about you.
no its never EVER been about me. it is about the rights of the individual.
...and i suppose you think all of your view points are 100% right? of course you think you are right. you SHOULD believe in what you are saying.
much like i should believe in what im saying. this doesnt make me arrogant or an elitist, it makes me passionate. if i didnt believe in what i was saying id be a hypocrite or disingenuous. I dont want to be either. please leave personal attacks out of it.
Vulchor:
Dont even get me started on the politicians you are defending and violating the rights of the indivdual. You as someone who claims to believe indivdual rights trump all other things should d@mn well know it is the job of govt. to take away your rights. Thats for Repubs and Dems. We are born free and politicians and govt. and laws simply limit what rights we have.
im saying on THIS ISSUE ALONE, i agree with them. you are right. both sides are crap. i have said it many times before but you seem to forget that.
Vulchor:
To say that this tax idea is any different violation of rights than tapping into a citizens phone line without warrant is absurd. Dont even say the two are not the same and I am deflecting here, because that is simply a cop out for not having to defend any points which you cannot.
i agree. the phone taps on US citizens are crap too
Vulchor:
And again back to my original point, I didnt call any specific person a racist....I am referring to the millions of bumpkins who blindly follow the republicans for uninformed and moral views instead of knowing sh!t about the facts....
and all im saying is that there is stupidity on both sides. dont think that only the republicans are dumb. many PEOPLE are dumb. and people exist on both sides
Vulchor:
if you can asy that is not what many voters are like then you obviously live in more of a box than I thought.
i am SURE that there are voters out there that are like that, but to believe that all OR MOST republicans are like that is just as absurd as thinking none are. it is also as absurd as thinking all democrats are stupid and lazy and just want a hand out from the government.
I agree that race should not have made its way into this topic at all. It had no relation what so ever. If you want to call Republicans racists then you can call Democrats the exact same thing, because I promise you there are just as many people that voted for President Obama because he is black, as there are people who voted against him for the same reason.
Vulchor, I agree with you that the tax is just as much a violation of rights as tapping someones phones without a warrant. The entire stimulous plan along with a goverment run healthcare program are also violations of our rights. I think you agree with Kuzi and myself a lot more than you let on, you just choose to attack the same issues from a different angle. Nobody on here ever said Republicans are great, because they aren't. This last election sucked ass... Nobody voted for a good cadidate, we all just voted for the lesser of 2 evils in our own minds.
Rare post for me in this forum. I really think that our options in each election keep getting worse and worse and worse. I'm sick of both parties because neither have produced a candidate that I just really wanted to get out and vote for. There's gotta be some better options out there somewhere.
I want a candidate who is conservative on the national budget and the programs, doesn't cut national defense funding, and is liberal on the moral issues. I'm pretty much a Republican, but I'm not because a woman's right to choose and gay rights are very important to me. As long as the Republican Party sides on their side of the fence on those issues, I'm not voting republican. It's really as simple as that for me.
I want a candidate who is conservative on the national budget and the programs, doesn't cut national defense funding, and is liberal on the moral issues. I'm pretty much a Republican, but I'm not because a woman's right to choose and gay rights are very important to me. As long as the Republican Party sides on their side of the fence on those issues, I'm not voting republican. It's really as simple as that for me.
I have been thinking a lot lately about the amount of government spending and how out of hand it has gotten, and it occured to me that the government bailing everyone out has really killed the charitable nature of people in our country. I started doing some research on this and actually found an interesting story. In 1887 Congress passed a bill to help Texas farmers who were fighting a severe drought. This bill would have given these farmers much more money than they could have ever dreamed of getting from their crops. But a very wise man, and Democrat, Grover Cleveland vetoed the Bill. In his statement he made afterward he said this:
"The Friendliness and charity or our countrymen can always be relied upon to relieve their fellow-citizens in misfortune. This has been repeatedly and quite lately demonstrated. Federal aid in such cases encourages the expectation of a paternal care on the part of the Government and weakens the sturdiness of our national character, while it prevents the indulgence among our people of that kindly sentiment and conduct which strengthens the bonds of a common brotherhood."
That was a very wise and well spoken statement and the best part... He was 100% right! The citizens character and brotherhood he spoke of shined through and private donations were made that equaled more than 10 times the amount he had vetoed in the Bill from Congress. Now that is pretty damn impressive. Of course it wasn't long before he left office and Teddy Rosevelt cam in and things have pretty much been down hill ever since. The governments role in "taking care of us all," has done nothing but increase and our charitable character went out the window...
This is too true... Whenever I see someone in need now, the first thing I think is, with all the programs out there you're begging me for money. It's not that you need help, you're just lazy.
It's the first place I go mentally, and it's not that I'm relying on the government but that I no longer believe the individual.
.... it's not that I'm relying on the government but that I no longer believe the individual.
I highly relate to this statement.
For me, I think it goes further. I simply believe that there are so many more opportunities these days for individuals to succeed if they simply want to do the right things and make the right decisions. There are plenty of non-government organizations out there who are willing to help a homeless man get his life back together. Unfortunately, there's a lot of bums taking advantage of these charitable organizations.
puro... thats a good though you have started there.
do you have any more info? i would lover to read more on this.
Well do a little research on old Grover. He was very interesting. I read about him shooting down somebody asking for more money to build a better looking Post Office so it would look right with the rest of the growing town... Let's just say that didn't go over well. He seemed to understand the fact that the governments job was to protect the rights of the individual and nothing more. My favorite quote of his was "the people should support the government the government should not support the people."
While I agree with this more than I do not----Its very sad to me to see uninformed people thinking there is so much charity and ways for people to better themselves out there without any govt assistance. As someone who works very closely with many non-profits, charities, ect. this could not further from the truth. Also, it glosses over, or simply neglects, the elderly, handicapped, mentally challenged, those with mental health issues...and that just names a few---who are unable for any number of reasons to help themselves with the "pick up by the bootstraps" approach. But I suppose it is easier to claim laziness and use blanket statements for all people who are poor or suffering than to give a few pennies of our taxes.
While I agree with this more than I do not----Its very sad to me to see uninformed people thinking there is so much charity and ways for people to better themselves out there without any govt assistance. As someone who works very closely with many non-profits, charities, ect. this could not further from the truth. Also, it glosses over, or simply neglects, the elderly, handicapped, mentally challenged, those with mental health issues...and that just names a few---who are unable for any number of reasons to help themselves with the "pick up by the bootstraps" approach. But I suppose it is easier to claim laziness and use blanket statements for all people who are poor or suffering than to give a few pennies of our taxes.
... this is actually whar Puro is saying. the charity of the people of the US has gone down because they now figure that the government will just take care of them.
correct me if im wrong, puro, but you are saying that the entitlement programs of the US have destroyed the charity business?
I dont take issue with that Kuz...I agree to a point. My issue is with the idea "there are plenty of places there to help people, they just need to help themselves, there's so much welfare already, etc." whenin actuality this couldnt be further from the truth.
I'm just gonna go ahead and assume you're referring to my statement Vulchor. First, let me assure you that I'm not talking about the elderly, the mentally or physically handicap, or those who simply do not have the ability to provide for themselves. The reason I made that statement is because I used to work as a foreman on interstate construction project on the southside of Jacksonville, FL. Part of my responsibilities was to supervise the day laborers that we hired from the labor pool. These people would essentially do the dirty work. We would get a lot of bums out there: people who didn't actually want to work, people who wanted to stand around, collect a paycheck, and then go buy their drugs and alcohol so they can get their fix and come back and do again tomorrow. Then there were a few people who were working at the labor pool because things had gone wrong in their lives and they were doing anything neccessary, anything possible to get their life back together. These people, I would help. I'd show them how to manage their money, how to set their priorities in place so they wouldn't fall into the same hole again. I'd get them going to church and introduce them to people who would help them if they would only help themselves. I'd do everything I could to teach them trades and get them set up with actual tradesmen who would take them on as an apprentice. If they were homeless, I'd get them into shelters. If the shelters were full, I'd get them in anyway assuring the shelter that this was no bum, this is a man who is working and trying to make a difference in his life. I'd introduce them to places they could get a hot meal. I've done this for well over 3 dozen individuals who came through our project.
The reason I'd do this is because someone did the same thing for me. I was that guy who went to the labor pool because my life had fallen apart. I was a good person, but I made some wrong decisions. I worked my tail off every day that I could, and lived wherever I could, however I could until I had enough money saved up to buy a vehicle. Once I had a vehicle, on days they labor pool didn't have work for me, I'd drive around and put in applications. Eventually, someone hired me. In fact, two places hired me and I worked 80 hours a week for 2 years straight! I was a standout employee. I finally got my own place, met a girl, started my life. The entire time I was employed at those two jobs, clerk at the Shell Station and Installer at Pep Boys, I put in job applications to places where I actually had formal training. Finally, a job opened up for me in the field I actually had training in, aviation, and I have a great job, a family, enough money that we don't really have to worry about money any more.
I hear a lot of people who say, I'm just gonna place my faith in God and let him direct me. Well, while I place my faith in God, I understand that God helps those who help themselves. If you want to turn your life around, it's possible. You can do it. I'm living proof. I didn't make that statement before because I thought it was possible. I made that statement because I know it's possible!
Thats a great story suspect, and I was not directing it at you specifically. I was trying to make a point that often we as a people have a tendency to make some blanket statements and when it comes to being poor or needing "welfare" often the groups I mentioned get placed into the same category with the lazy a$$ who would rather get food stamps and apply for disability than buy their cigarettes with money they earn.
While I agree with this more than I do not----Its very sad to me to see uninformed people thinking there is so much charity and ways for people to better themselves out there without any govt assistance. As someone who works very closely with many non-profits, charities, ect. this could not further from the truth. Also, it glosses over, or simply neglects, the elderly, handicapped, mentally challenged, those with mental health issues...and that just names a few---who are unable for any number of reasons to help themselves with the "pick up by the bootstraps" approach. But I suppose it is easier to claim laziness and use blanket statements for all people who are poor or suffering than to give a few pennies of our taxes.
... this is actually whar Puro is saying. the charity of the people of the US has gone down because they now figure that the government will just take care of them.
correct me if im wrong, puro, but you are saying that the entitlement programs of the US have destroyed the charity business?
You are correct Kuzi, the social welfare programs have killed people sense of charity. Like the story from Grover Cleveland showed, at the time people would step up and help their brothers. They donated 10 times the amount of money that Congress wanted to give them. This wouldn't happen today... Today you have FEMA that steps in and millions of dollars in fraudulent claims are made and our tax dollars end up going strip clubs and liquor stores. FEMA handed out $6.3 billion and almost a quarter of that was spend fraudulently. Hell FEMA even admited to losing 381 debit cards worth approx $762,000...
That being said, my next big question is, since we have been taught that "the government will take care of it," is it even possible for us to reverse this way of thinking nationwide?
Thats a great story suspect, and I was not directing it at you specifically. I was trying to make a point that often we as a people have a tendency to make some blanket statements and when it comes to being poor or needing "welfare" often the groups I mentioned get placed into the same category with the lazy a$$ who would rather get food stamps and apply for disability than buy their cigarettes with money they earn.
I agree with you Vulchor. I do it myself sometimes. I definately believe that the care of the disabled and handicap is neccessary. I do also believe that the welfare system needs a major overhaul to ensure that honest people are not mixed with the dishonest. When a person sits on welfare for the majority of their adult life, I start to believe that they're just lazy and not "less fortunate." I'd really like to see some massive improvements in the welfare department.
"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." - Ben Franklin
-
-
-
"Democracy is a form of government that cannot long survive, for as soon as the people learn that they have a voice in the fiscal policies of the government, they will move to vote for themselves all the money in the treasury, and bankrupt the nation." - Karl Marx
"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." - Ben Franklin
-
-
-
"Democracy is a form of government that cannot long survive, for as soon as the people learn that they have a voice in the fiscal policies of the government, they will move to vote for themselves all the money in the treasury, and bankrupt the nation." - Karl Marx
That second quote is correct, that is why our nation was not formed as a democracy, but as a Republic as Ben Franklin said in the first quote. There is a difference. I do see your point though and you are right.
Comments
LMAO you've got to have your prioritys alligned man LOL !!!
there are people out there that think that all republicans are evil and if you vote for them you are voting for big rich white guys who wanna hold you down but if you vote for a democrat your voting peace and love and a good time for everyone.
the reality of the matter is, neither negative stereotype (for either party) is totally what is claimed. there may be some elements that make them seem true to those who claim them, but they dont hold much water.
and why do you have to bring RACE into it? this is the second time you bring race into an argument where it was previously unmentioned. are you calling people here racist? if so, do it. if not leave the race talk out of it. you do not know what is in other peoples hearts. dont pretend to.
these "closed minded" politicians are saying "no" to socialism. they are saying "no" to violating the rights of the individual. they are saying "no" to the entitlement mentality that this country has. the mentality that everyone owes them something.
...and i suppose you think all of your view points are 100% right?
of course you think you are right. you SHOULD believe in what you are saying.
much like i should believe in what im saying. this doesnt make me arrogant or an elitist, it makes me passionate. if i didnt believe in what i was saying id be a hypocrite or disingenuous. I dont want to be either.
please leave personal attacks out of it. im saying on THIS ISSUE ALONE, i agree with them. you are right. both sides are crap. i have said it many times before but you seem to forget that. i agree. the phone taps on US citizens are crap too and all im saying is that there is stupidity on both sides. dont think that only the republicans are dumb. many PEOPLE are dumb. and people exist on both sides i am SURE that there are voters out there that are like that, but to believe that all OR MOST republicans are like that is just as absurd as thinking none are. it is also as absurd as thinking all democrats are stupid and lazy and just want a hand out from the government.
Vulchor, I agree with you that the tax is just as much a violation of rights as tapping someones phones without a warrant. The entire stimulous plan along with a goverment run healthcare program are also violations of our rights. I think you agree with Kuzi and myself a lot more than you let on, you just choose to attack the same issues from a different angle. Nobody on here ever said Republicans are great, because they aren't. This last election sucked ass... Nobody voted for a good cadidate, we all just voted for the lesser of 2 evils in our own minds.
"The Friendliness and charity or our countrymen can always be relied upon to relieve their fellow-citizens in misfortune. This has been repeatedly and quite lately demonstrated. Federal aid in such cases encourages the expectation of a paternal care on the part of the Government and weakens the sturdiness of our national character, while it prevents the indulgence among our people of that kindly sentiment and conduct which strengthens the bonds of a common brotherhood."
That was a very wise and well spoken statement and the best part... He was 100% right! The citizens character and brotherhood he spoke of shined through and private donations were made that equaled more than 10 times the amount he had vetoed in the Bill from Congress. Now that is pretty damn impressive. Of course it wasn't long before he left office and Teddy Rosevelt cam in and things have pretty much been down hill ever since. The governments role in "taking care of us all," has done nothing but increase and our charitable character went out the window...
It's the first place I go mentally, and it's not that I'm relying on the government but that I no longer believe the individual.
For me, I think it goes further. I simply believe that there are so many more opportunities these days for individuals to succeed if they simply want to do the right things and make the right decisions. There are plenty of non-government organizations out there who are willing to help a homeless man get his life back together. Unfortunately, there's a lot of bums taking advantage of these charitable organizations.
do you have any more info? i would lover to read more on this.
correct me if im wrong, puro, but you are saying that the entitlement programs of the US have destroyed the charity business?
The reason I'd do this is because someone did the same thing for me. I was that guy who went to the labor pool because my life had fallen apart. I was a good person, but I made some wrong decisions. I worked my tail off every day that I could, and lived wherever I could, however I could until I had enough money saved up to buy a vehicle. Once I had a vehicle, on days they labor pool didn't have work for me, I'd drive around and put in applications. Eventually, someone hired me. In fact, two places hired me and I worked 80 hours a week for 2 years straight! I was a standout employee. I finally got my own place, met a girl, started my life. The entire time I was employed at those two jobs, clerk at the Shell Station and Installer at Pep Boys, I put in job applications to places where I actually had formal training. Finally, a job opened up for me in the field I actually had training in, aviation, and I have a great job, a family, enough money that we don't really have to worry about money any more.
I hear a lot of people who say, I'm just gonna place my faith in God and let him direct me. Well, while I place my faith in God, I understand that God helps those who help themselves. If you want to turn your life around, it's possible. You can do it. I'm living proof. I didn't make that statement before because I thought it was possible. I made that statement because I know it's possible!
That being said, my next big question is, since we have been taught that "the government will take care of it," is it even possible for us to reverse this way of thinking nationwide?