Actually JPCLot, Bush Administration did want people to report any suspicious activity of their neighbors, ect. and *** Cheney in particular. Of course Pelosi had about half a dozen other things she couldve asked for impeachment on----but thats neither here nor there. I think the simple fact should be pointed out that, at least it seems, that anyone who holds the office of the president is a rather power hungry fellow who wants as little real dissent as possible-----despite what their politican side may say.
First of all, if Pelosi or anyone else would have had a legal leg to stand on, they would have tried to impeach President Bush, but disagreeing with him isn't enough of a reason.
Secondly, asking people to keep an eye on their neighbors for suspicious behavior after a massive terrosist attack that killed 3000 people is nothing like asking people to forward emails speaking out against a healthcare bill that much of the country is against. I agree wioth the notion that if Bush had done something like this he would have been crucified, but honestly the two are totally unrelated and it doesn't change the fact that the current administration is wrong in doing this for a number of reasons. The left in this country has always claimed to be the supporters of free speech, but times... They are a changin...
both cases are witch hunts. both cases are submissions to give up your 4th amendment rights.
Vulchor:
that anyone who holds the office of the president is a rather power hungry fellow who wants as little real dissent as possible
i agree with this for the most part.
i would have put it a bit differently. i would have added the words "recently"
and "probably" somewhere in there. I mean, i dont know, or claim to know, what is in men's hearts. I can get clues to it by their actions, but i cannot know for sure.
it does feel a bit Orwellian, and it is pitting americans against each other. it is a very divisive thing to do from a president that in his campaign was hailed to be a great unifier.
Actually JPCLot, Bush Administration did want people to report any suspicious activity of their neighbors, ect. and *** Cheney in particular. Of course Pelosi had about half a dozen other things she couldve asked for impeachment on----but thats neither here nor there. I think the simple fact should be pointed out that, at least it seems, that anyone who holds the office of the president is a rather power hungry fellow who wants as little real dissent as possible-----despite what their politican side may say.
First of all, if Pelosi or anyone else would have had a legal leg to stand on, they would have tried to impeach President Bush, but disagreeing with him isn't enough of a reason.
Secondly, asking people to keep an eye on their neighbors for suspicious behavior after a massive terrosist attack that killed 3000 people is nothing like asking people to forward emails speaking out against a healthcare bill that much of the country is against. I agree wioth the notion that if Bush had done something like this he would have been crucified, but honestly the two are totally unrelated and it doesn't change the fact that the current administration is wrong in doing this for a number of reasons. The left in this country has always claimed to be the supporters of free speech, but times... They are a changin...
both cases are witch hunts. both cases are submissions to give up your 4th amendment rights.
I agree with this too a point, but having people watch for criminal activity is not a submission of anyones 4th amendment rights. It isn't much different than a neighborhood watch group. However some neighborhood watch groups take things way too far, and so did some people after 9/11.
i find it interesting that when people show up to town hall meetings in protest the Democrat leadership calls those people "brown shirts" and "***" and are "Carrying Swastikas"
a few points on this. brown shirts were government run.
*** and other fascists want to have the government in control of huge sections of the private sector. the protesters want less government control.
in all the videos i have seen on the subject, i have never once sen a swastica.
they keep saying that the republicans have "called out the mob"
i am not a republican. i am against the health care reform. i have not been "called out" by anyone.
i feel that the democrats are drawing on their experience to make statements like this. when they need a protest they call up ACORN (that gets government funding ... so that may make them the REAL brown shirts...) and have them show up in their matching shirts and signs to intimidate people. they assume that the republicans MUST act the same way because people are unable to think for themselves and need to follow marching orders of someone.
My main thought behind this is... WHO CARES IF THEY ARE ORGANIZED? What does that change? Just because a bunch of people who think alike and are taking a stand against something are organized, does that mean their opinions doesn't matter? Well in that case any and every cause the left has organized and spoken out for or against don't matter either. ACORN, PETA, Pro-Choice, Pro-Life, Anti-Death Penalty, Anti-Imigration and Pro-Imigration groups are ALL oraganized. That doesn't mean the people don't believe in their cause and aren't serious about what they are speaking out for. For the Democrats to belittle these people and their opinions is very arrogant and that is not what our country is supposed to stand for.
Just because a bunch of people who think alike and are taking a stand against something are organized, does that mean their opinions doesn't matter? Well in that case any and every cause the left has organized and spoken out for or against don't matter either. ACORN, PETA, Pro-Choice, Pro-Life, Anti-Death Penalty, Anti-Imigration and Pro-Imigration groups are ALL oraganized. That doesn't mean the people don't believe in their cause and aren't serious about what they are speaking out for. For the Democrats to belittle these people and their opinions is very arrogant and that is not what our country is supposed to stand for.
I seriously think our government is just trying to see how much money they can piss away between now and the 2010 elections. I saw we give the House $5,000 to buy an old bus and have them remodel it themselves and use it to tour around the country. It would be the most productive thing most of the have EVER done.
Just because a bunch of people who think alike and are taking a stand against something are organized, does that mean their opinions doesn't matter? Well in that case any and every cause the left has organized and spoken out for or against don't matter either. ACORN, PETA, Pro-Choice, Pro-Life, Anti-Death Penalty, Anti-Imigration and Pro-Imigration groups are ALL oraganized. That doesn't mean the people don't believe in their cause and aren't serious about what they are speaking out for. For the Democrats to belittle these people and their opinions is very arrogant and that is not what our country is supposed to stand for.
well said, sir.
Agreed...very well said. This is where the media's liberal bias really shines through.
i wonder how the modern national health care reform compares to Hitlers or Mussalini (sp?) national medical health care plan. anyone have that plan on hand? or a link to it?
the word "N A Z I" comes from the german word for "national socialism"
"N A Z I"= "Nationale Sozialistische Deutche Arbeiterpartei"
Chuck Norris supported Mike Huackabee on the campaign trail. Which means that not only was CHuck Norris able to defeat the sun in a staring contest, and not only is Churck Norris such a bad a$$ when he goes on stage he breaks someone else's leg-----he is also evidently a douche....lol.
Chuck Norris supported Mike Huackabee on the campaign trail. Which means that not only was CHuck Norris able to defeat the sun in a staring contest, and not only is Churck Norris such a bad a$$ when he goes on stage he breaks someone else's leg-----he is also evidently a douche....lol.
...but if i said "everyone that supports Obama is a douche" i would be chastised...
not that i would say that about Obama supporters because i usually argue with facts and statistics, rather than reverting to personal attacks that prove nothing.
Chuck Norris supported Mike Huackabee on the campaign trail. Which means that not only was CHuck Norris able to defeat the sun in a staring contest, and not only is Churck Norris such a bad a$$ when he goes on stage he breaks someone else's leg-----he is also evidently a douche....lol.
Chuck Norris got so excited when Mike Huckabee won the Iowa caucuses that he ran around the world and kicked himself in the back of the head.
I dont know if yours was funnier JP, or if it was more comical that Kuzi tried to make a political or factual argument or retort to my comment merely as a way to disguise his offense to me calling out Chuck Norris. lol.
im not offended that you called out chuck norris. you have every right to your opinion just as chuck does. im just pointing out a double standard that the left seems to live by.
While I enjoy the bantering and arguing here---everything stated applies to both sides. Libs and Conservs dont like dissent. Lets not forget that at Bush rallies protesters were forced to hundreds of yards away from the press conference or speech. All that is done here is complaining about what is going on, but I cant say this isnt the best we can do----since neither side of the aisle gives a crap for the citizens (as a whole) as much as they do securing their own legacyThere is no truth to even speak of, as polls are tilted based on who sponsors them or how the question is worded. Some say there will be death panels... (I say Glen Beck and Rush were only born with a brain stem) but besides that---dont we already have death panels??? What are the guys at insurance companies who decide if they will pay for a patients expensive procedure or write it off as elective/experimental/or just plain no...sounds like a death panel based on saving money to me.. Some say we cant have socialized anything... I say we already do, such as Medicare, Medicaid, h*ll...even a Fire. Dept. is a socialist group isnt it? Some say the town hall meetings are beneficial and allowing people to speak out...I say it sure looks like a group of middle aged, upper middle class white guys (and a few of their yuppie silver spooned children) screaming at anyone that will listen and what their words really say are " a black president, a hispanic supreme court judge, 25years til we arent the majority in this country...what happened to the good ol days?? We want em back, now lets yell about it".No need for any reponses really, as I know my point will be called wrong, or rude, or factless---however there is often the need to fight simple tuths.
While I enjoy the bantering and arguing here---everything stated applies to both sides. Libs and Conservs dont like dissent. Lets not forget that at Bush rallies protesters were forced to hundreds of yards away from the press conference or speech. All that is done here is complaining about what is going on, but I cant say this isnt the best we can do----since neither side of the aisle gives a crap for the citizens (as a whole) as much as they do securing their own legacy
this is true. i have a feeling that you are saying this because you assume that i am some conservative nut job. i could be wrong. I assure you that i am not a conservative nut job. im not a conservative. I am a libertarian. I dont want any policy that will limit the freedom of people. i call it as i see it from the perspective of how things affect the liberties of the individual.
Vulchor:
There is no truth to even speak of, as polls are tilted based on who sponsors them or how the question is worded.
there is a truth. it does exist. if it is represented in a question in a poll is another question all together.
the polls (across the board) seem to be saying that a good amount of people (appx 50%) are against the health care program. they have a right as an individual to be against it. to force them to take part in any program that they do not want to take part in is a violation of their individual rights.
Vulchor:
Some say there will be death panels... (I say Glen Beck and Rush were only born with a brain stem) but besides that---dont we already have death panels??? What are the guys at insurance companies who decide if they will pay for a patients expensive procedure or write it off as elective/experimental/or just plain no...sounds like a death panel based on saving money to me..
there are a few things going on.
if you are against "death panels" then you should be against them if the government runs them or not. this is a slight inconsistency in your argument. im fairly sure that this is not your point. it seems that you are trying to demonize the insurance industry
it is easy to use them as a scape goat.
all of this boils down to the question: is heath care a right?
the fact is, health care is not a right.
Vulchor:
Some say we cant have socialized anything... I say we already do, such as Medicare, Medicaid, h*ll...even a Fire. Dept. is a socialist group isnt it?
you are right. i am against those things as a public entity. all of those things can be accomplished without the government involvement. the only job of the government is the protection of individual rights. not health care. not welfare. not housing development. nothing else.
Vulchor:
Some say the town hall meetings are beneficial and allowing people to speak out...I say it sure looks like a group of middle aged, upper middle class white guys (and a few of their yuppie silver spooned children) screaming at anyone that will listen and what their words really say are " a black president, a hispanic supreme court judge, 25years til we arent the majority in this country...what happened to the good ol days?? We want em back, now lets yell about it".
i care not about race. i care about individual rights at all costs.
if you feel that all this health care debate is an extention of a race war then why did a black conservative get beat by white union members trying to stand up against the health care reform? i think that walter williams and thomas sowell would find your view on this interesting. If you are calling ME a racist, then i am insulted, and a bit let down by your opinion.
Vulchor:
No need for any reponses really, as I know my point will be called wrong, or rude, or factless---however there is often the need to fight simple tuths.
you are right, simple truths are needed. the most basic truths are that we are all created equal, we all own our selves, and in this country according to the constitution we are all free to live as we please providing that we do not infringe on the rights of others.
Comments
i would have put it a bit differently. i would have added the words "recently" and "probably" somewhere in there. I mean, i dont know, or claim to know, what is in men's hearts. I can get clues to it by their actions, but i cannot know for sure.
it does feel a bit Orwellian, and it is pitting americans against each other. it is a very divisive thing to do from a president that in his campaign was hailed to be a great unifier.
*** NANCY PELOSI
a few points on this.
brown shirts were government run.
*** and other fascists want to have the government in control of huge sections of the private sector. the protesters want less government control.
in all the videos i have seen on the subject, i have never once sen a swastica.
they keep saying that the republicans have "called out the mob"
i am not a republican. i am against the health care reform. i have not been "called out" by anyone.
i feel that the democrats are drawing on their experience to make statements like this. when they need a protest they call up ACORN (that gets government funding ... so that may make them the REAL brown shirts...) and have them show up in their matching shirts and signs to intimidate people. they assume that the republicans MUST act the same way because people are unable to think for themselves and need to follow marching orders of someone.
edit: the word
N a z i
is filtered?
CLICK
My main thought behind this is... WHO CARES IF THEY ARE ORGANIZED? What does that change? Just because a bunch of people who think alike and are taking a stand against something are organized, does that mean their opinions doesn't matter? Well in that case any and every cause the left has organized and spoken out for or against don't matter either. ACORN, PETA, Pro-Choice, Pro-Life, Anti-Death Penalty, Anti-Imigration and Pro-Imigration groups are ALL oraganized. That doesn't mean the people don't believe in their cause and aren't serious about what they are speaking out for. For the Democrats to belittle these people and their opinions is very arrogant and that is not what our country is supposed to stand for.
Raising a toast to you and Puro, Greg ...cheers
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124986067095218079.html
Deficit grew by $181 billion in July
for those keeping track thats just over 20% of the cost of the war on terror since 2001. (as of 8-10-09)
54% Favor Middle Class Tax Cuts Over New Health Care Spending
32% Favor Single-Payer Health Care, 57% Oppose
i wonder how the modern national health care reform compares to Hitlers or Mussalini (sp?) national medical health care plan. anyone have that plan on hand? or a link to it?
the word "N A Z I" comes from the german word for "national socialism"
"N A Z I"= "Nationale Sozialistische Deutche Arbeiterpartei"
AKA "National Socialist German Workers Party."
Chuck Norris is against Obamacare.
Seriously who does she think she is?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/10/tight-spot-pelosi-calls-health-care-critics-american/
On Health Care, 51% Fear Government More Than Insurance Companies
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/12/obama-claim-aarp-endorsement-inaccurate/
not that i would say that about Obama supporters because i usually argue with facts and statistics, rather than reverting to personal attacks that prove nothing.
im just pointing out a double standard that the left seems to live by.
I assure you that i am not a conservative nut job.
im not a conservative.
I am a libertarian. I dont want any policy that will limit the freedom of people. i call it as i see it from the perspective of how things affect the liberties of the individual. there is a truth. it does exist. if it is represented in a question in a poll is another question all together.
the polls (across the board) seem to be saying that a good amount of people (appx 50%) are against the health care program. they have a right as an individual to be against it. to force them to take part in any program that they do not want to take part in is a violation of their individual rights. there are a few things going on.
if you are against "death panels" then you should be against them if the government runs them or not. this is a slight inconsistency in your argument. im fairly sure that this is not your point. it seems that you are trying to demonize the insurance industry
it is easy to use them as a scape goat.
all of this boils down to the question:
is heath care a right?
the fact is, health care is not a right. you are right. i am against those things as a public entity. all of those things can be accomplished without the government involvement. the only job of the government is the protection of individual rights. not health care. not welfare. not housing development. nothing else. i care not about race. i care about individual rights at all costs.
if you feel that all this health care debate is an extention of a race war then why did a black conservative get beat by white union members trying to stand up against the health care reform?
i think that walter williams and thomas sowell would find your view on this interesting.
If you are calling ME a racist, then i am insulted, and a bit let down by your opinion. you are right, simple truths are needed. the most basic truths are that we are all created equal, we all own our selves, and in this country according to the constitution we are all free to live as we please providing that we do not infringe on the rights of others.